Author Topic: EP110: Frankie the Spook  (Read 33388 times)

SFEley

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Reply #25 on: June 19, 2007, 08:14:02 PM
I heard that she's hired an infinite number of monkeys...

Heh.  For general amusement, here's the quotation I almost used at the end of the episode:

“I heard someone tried the monkeys-on-typewriters bit trying for the plays of W. Shakespeare, but all they got was the collected works of Francis Bacon.”
 -- Bill Hirst

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sayeth

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Reply #26 on: June 19, 2007, 08:27:42 PM
I think the whole avoidance of mentioning how Marvin created the program was an acknowledgment that doing such a thing would be impossible. The only way for this story to work is to plea for the reader to not think about it too deeply and just go along with a suspension of disbelief. That's okay. Humor SF is a subgenre where in certain circumstances you can get away with asking your readers to accept something incredible at face value.

As for me, I like to assume that Marvin engaged in some unholy combination of necromancy and programming. Otherwise, how could Bacon know the things only he knows?

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #27 on: June 19, 2007, 08:53:19 PM
The "Will the greatest writer in the history of the human race ghostwrite your pitiful little novel?" obviously references sonnet 136:

Whoever hath her wish, thou hast thy Will,
And Will to boot, and Will in overplus;
More than enough am I that vex thee still,
To thy sweet will making addition thus. (the italics and capitalisation are those of the original text)

That's Sonnet 135, actually.  136 is also full of 'Will' puns, but 135 is much dirtier, especially if one of my English teachers was right that 'will' was an Elizabethan euphemism.

("Wilt thou, whose will is large and spacious,
Not once vouchsafe to hide my will in thine?")


You guys are all way too smart.  Go play Mario Kart or something.    8)

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #28 on: June 19, 2007, 09:55:50 PM
The intro struck a cord with me. I'm kind of a fringe SF/geek who has many hardcore, card-carrying friends. Something I've seen come up often are people who have read a few too many SF and are trying to live their lives as though they were one of those heroes. They buy fantasy weapons they can't use and believe that your life should be lived to uphold a single ideal. The most popular and comprehensive ideal seems to be *HONOR*, and that with enough *HONOR* or the right kind of *HONOR* life, love, and happiness will be yours. *HONOR* comes from slaying dragons, righting wrongs, saving the damsel/planet, or beating the unbeatable odds. That's what the Hero does. Unfortunately there isn't much in fiction (that I've seen) that highlights the heroism, dedication, and honorability of doing a good day's work, paying your bills on time, putting your kid through college, and saving for retirement. That's what "Farmer #6082" does, and although he never gets a sword of power to pass on to his son, he won't get caught changing a diaper while wearing a broadsword and loincloth.

Frodo had to destroy the Ring to protect the Shire.  It wasn't some macho quest to get "honor."

A hero uses what strength they have to protect what is good in the world, rather that protection is done by wielding a sword, a pen, or just a mop.  A hero loves the Shire, and so goes to Mordor.  He doesn't go because fighting orcs sounds fun.

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mike-resnick

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Reply #29 on: June 20, 2007, 01:38:28 AM


The story was good, and "limpware" was a great line, but since we have the author here I thought I'd ask:
Mr. Resnic, have you updated this story since you wrote it 17 years ago?
17 years ago my family didn't have a PC, and I'm not entirely sure I'd ever heard of E-mail. How did you come up with putting the bards in a box?
[/quote]

No, I never update my stories. Once they're sold, they're history. I've probably done 150 since this one. Besides, as I said earlier, it's just a piece of fluff, a few minutes of humor. Even if I did update, this is hardly the kind I'd spend the time on. I've made more than my share of money on it, and I'm pleased with it, but I'm a lot closer to the end of my life than the beginning, and I still have a ton of new stories to tell.

-- Mike Resnick



mike-resnick

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Reply #30 on: June 20, 2007, 01:46:41 AM
Mr. Resnic, have you updated this story since you wrote it 17 years ago?

17 years ago? That was 1990. In 1990, I was 13, and I already owned my third computer (sequentially, not at the same time), and my father had what must have been his fourth or fifth. I was subscribed to popular computer magazines, which at the time were all very new and excited about the possibilities of the future.

1990 was eight years after the release of Tron, four years after the release of Short Circuit. It was five years after the release of Weird Science, which is also found on the premise that people can just create life on a computer, and that that life will be entirely human in its disposition and psychology but superhuman in its abilities, and that its creator will apparently have no direct control over it - not because he lost control, but apparently because the way you program computers is to tell them to do something ("Assemble Francis Bacon!") and leave all the details up to it.

I'm curious if Mike Resnic feels the same or I'm totally off-base, but for me this is a story that was far more likely to have been written - as is - in the late 80s than today.

Well, since it appeared in 1990, I assume I wrote it in 1989. I remember this: it was commissioned for an anthology of stories about simulicrons of historical people created inside computers,  interacting with people in the here and now. I wrote it, sent it in, and the editor, who shall remain nameless since he's a good friend and I've sold him a few stories since, told me that I wasn't taking his theme seriously and that he'd like me to remove the humor. Well, hell, it's a ludicrous theme, and I liked the humor, so I pulled it, faxed it to F&SF, and sold it about an hour later. And have sold it all around the world ever since, which means someone else must agree with me that it is impossible to take such a theme seriously.

Someone else here asked how Bacon was assembled. Beats the hell out of me. All I know how to do with my computer is write stories and answer e-mail. As madSimon will be happy to tell you, disgustedly and at length, I have very little use for science in my stories, and even less interest in it.

-- Mike Resnick



Simon Painter

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Reply #31 on: June 20, 2007, 10:44:56 AM
Quote
As madSimon will be happy to tell you, disgustedly and at length, I have very little use for science in my stories, and even less interest in it.

*sigh* I've pointed this out several times already, and I'm going to do it once more, though I don't think I'll have the enthusiasm after this.

I *don't* and *never have* considered the SF/Not SF debate to be important.  I raised it as a comment on the thread for your last story purely because this is an SF podcast.  I'm quite happy to read stories with a minimal science content.  On this story, for example, I thought that the lack of science was entirely appropriate to the style of the story.

The *main* point I raised with that previous story was it's lack of plot.  Really.  You seem to have stereotyped me as a 'Resnick-hating-SF-Nerd' I only debated the point because I found it an interesting thought exercise, and I would hope that the same is true of those that joined in.

I should point out that the most insightfull comment about the whole debate was made by Slic on page 5, concerning the categorisation of Tomatoes as either Fruit of Vegetables, depending on who you ask.  Though rather than commenting on this, you made a frivolous comment about not writing 'Sci-Fi'.

I don't rate stories based on their SF content, I rate them on Plotting, Characterisation, Focus and Setting.  It's one or two of these that I found lacking on that last story.  Rather than discussing these points, though, you've ignored them and continued to raise the SF/Not SF debate, which is a non-issue to me.

And, for the record, I enjoyed Travels with My Cats, when it appeared here, and it doesn't get any less SF than that!

So please, can we just let this SF/Not SF matter drop?  Or at least, leave my name out of it, it's really not something I'm involved with.

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

"Save the Squonk!"


ajames

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Reply #32 on: June 20, 2007, 10:46:29 AM
The most popular and comprehensive ideal seems to be *HONOR*, and that with enough *HONOR* or the right kind of *HONOR* life, love, and happiness will be yours. *HONOR* comes from slaying dragons, righting wrongs, saving the damsel/planet, or beating the unbeatable odds. That's what the Hero does. Unfortunately there isn't much in fiction (that I've seen) that highlights the heroism, dedication, and honorability of doing a good day's work, paying your bills on time, putting your kid through college, and saving for retirement.

I also admit [as Thaurismunths does earlier in his post quoted here] to not being the most avid scifi/fantasy fan.  But in my case I have loved what I have read, just haven't read widely enough.  That is part of the reason I love EP so much, it exposes me to stories I otherwise wouldn't hear or read, most of which I enjoy, and some of which have been amazing.  Mr. Resnick's "Travels with Cats" story was one of the first EP stories I listened to, and never in a million years would I have picked to read a story with that title.  And I enjoyed it.

So, maybe I have been lucky, but what I have read [and heard] in scifi and fantasy has been very diverse in style and theme, and even when there are dragons to be slain, there is often just as much sympathy for the dragon and/or nuances in the development of the story or hero's character that keep it interesting.  And although the high action of many stories may seem to remove the ideals of love, duty, honor, etc. from daily life, the successful stories remind us that these ideals are indeed at the core of our everyday struggles, even if these struggles have none of the glamour of the epic struggle the hero is often engaqed in.

Gotta go, the kids are calling. 



Simon

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Reply #33 on: June 20, 2007, 11:04:06 AM
Hello All,

Just wanted to stand behind MadSimonJ...  There appears to be a growing consensus (or weakening will) against those who keep standing up and saying "when I ordered this sf story, I did not ask for mayonnaise", even Slic hasn't stood up on this one.

Let's just make it clear.. I hate mayonnaise,  it's a continental thing that is turning up all over my food, and if I get mayonnaise between my crusty bap and my burger... Well, I am sending that burger back.

Mike Resnick likes mayonnaise - fair enough, I'll let him continue being a continental mayo-eating pervert.

But if I (and those like me) don't keep standing up and saying that I hate mayo, I'll get it on my bloody chips as well as my burger.

Down with mayo (with the greatest respect, Mr Resnick)

Thus, please, if Simon Painter doesn't want his name taken in vain, you are welcome to use mine.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 11:16:31 AM by Simon »



Thaurismunths

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Reply #34 on: June 20, 2007, 11:55:41 AM
Mr. Resnic, have you updated this story since you wrote it 17 years ago?

17 years ago? That was 1990. In 1990, I was 13, and I already owned my third computer (sequentially, not at the same time), and my father had what must have been his fourth or fifth. I was subscribed to popular computer magazines, which at the time were all very new and excited about the possibilities of the future.

1990 was eight years after the release of Tron, four years after the release of Short Circuit. It was five years after the release of Weird Science, which is also found on the premise that people can just create life on a computer, and that that life will be entirely human in its disposition and psychology but superhuman in its abilities, and that its creator will apparently have no direct control over it - not because he lost control, but apparently because the way you program computers is to tell them to do something ("Assemble Francis Bacon!") and leave all the details up to it.

I'm curious if Mike Resnic feels the same or I'm totally off-base, but for me this is a story that was far more likely to have been written - as is - in the late 80s than today.

*L* I r teh lamez!
See, back in 1990, I was 9. We didn't rent Short Circuit, Weird Science, or Tron 'till I was a few years older. I didn't think to go back and look at when they were made. So I guess I'm just not as in awe of Mike's forethought. Sorry Mike. ;)
Great story all the same.

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Thaurismunths

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Reply #35 on: June 20, 2007, 12:36:23 PM
The intro struck a cord with me. I'm kind of a fringe SF/geek who has many hardcore, card-carrying friends. Something I've seen come up often are people who have read a few too many SF and are trying to live their lives as though they were one of those heroes. They buy fantasy weapons they can't use and believe that your life should be lived to uphold a single ideal. The most popular and comprehensive ideal seems to be *HONOR*, and that with enough *HONOR* or the right kind of *HONOR* life, love, and happiness will be yours. *HONOR* comes from slaying dragons, righting wrongs, saving the damsel/planet, or beating the unbeatable odds. That's what the Hero does. Unfortunately there isn't much in fiction (that I've seen) that highlights the heroism, dedication, and honorability of doing a good day's work, paying your bills on time, putting your kid through college, and saving for retirement. That's what "Farmer #6082" does, and although he never gets a sword of power to pass on to his son, he won't get caught changing a diaper while wearing a broadsword and loincloth.

Frodo had to destroy the Ring to protect the Shire.  It wasn't some macho quest to get "honor."

A hero uses what strength they have to protect what is good in the world, rather that protection is done by wielding a sword, a pen, or just a mop.  A hero loves the Shire, and so goes to Mordor.  He doesn't go because fighting orcs sounds fun.
That's a great example. Thank you.
First off, I have NO PROBLEM with fictional characters. They live in fictional worlds that have real wizards, and swords, and dragons, and kings, and jedi, and magic rings, and triffids, and zombies, and floating castles, and cyborgs, and time machines, and... That's fiction. Fiction is great. I'm talking about the real world.
The hero of Lord of the Rings isn't Frodo, he's just some simpering hobbit. ;) The real hero is Samwise.
Frodo got the ring by chance or fate, but it was Sam who had the courage and strength to press on and take Frodo to Mount Doom and complete the quest, showing caring, dedication, courage, honor, and compassion the whole way. If Sam hadn't been there to carry most of the luggage, cook, keep watch, ration the food, and bolster Frodo's confidence Frodo wouldn't have ever made it. But few people remember Sam as the hero, it's always Frodo, and that's what I'm talking about. 
I love stories about rings and swords and dragons, and I'm not alone. There's a reason they're so popular and people can make money writing them. Some even leave you with a warm glow deep in your chest that makes you want to live up to your full potential, to be a great warrior in your own right. That is an admirable thing for a book to do. What I mean to say is that there is a population of people who read too many of these books, watch too many movies, and take them too much to heart. That they focus on Frodo and ignore Sam.
They would rather play, or dream of playing, the big part than tow the line or do the unpleasant tasks. Standing watch and minding rations is boring, droll, and thankless, but will ultimately make more difference than who actual pockets the ring. The same thing goes for making sure bills get paid and floors get vacuumed vs. being the "cool dad." It's the difference between someone who reads fiction about being a hero (or playing one on the computer), rather than showing up for all the PTA meetings, getting to work on time, and makes all their kid's baseball games.
Back to my point about *HONOR*. There are people who would rather live under fiction's protective wing and dream of themselves as an *HONORABLE* warrior and never have their mettle tested, than to stand watch all the boring hours (eg. go to work) and test themselves against adversities of life.

Edit: Ok, I take back the thing about zombies being fictional.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 02:50:51 PM by Thaurismunths »

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #36 on: June 20, 2007, 01:26:32 PM
Preach it, Thaur!  Second to all that.

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mike-resnick

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Reply #37 on: June 20, 2007, 05:51:41 PM

Mike Resnick likes mayonnaise - fair enough, I'll let him continue being a continental mayo-eating pervert.

But if I (and those like me) don't keep standing up and saying that I hate mayo, I'll get it on my bloody chips as well as my burger.

Down with mayo (with the greatest respect, Mr Resnick)

Thus, please, if Simon Painter doesn't want his name taken in vain, you are welcome to use mine.
[/quote]

A conspiracy of Simons???

What the hell; you've got a point. If I were you, I'd ask Steve for my
money back.   ;-)

-- Mike Resnick



Simon

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Reply #38 on: June 20, 2007, 10:34:15 PM
You're welcome Mr Resnick, however let me put it another way again...

As far as I am concerned, Steve Eley is a monopoly supplier...  He's a monopoly supplier of Escape Pods.  With a monopoly supplier you don't ask for your money back (you still need them, after all).  No, you badger, cajole, and irritate until finally you resort to litigation...

Because while there may be other podcasts of SF out there,  there is only one that produces Escape Pods.

Anyway,  Final admission, that somewhat undermines our argument:

I loved this story.  I actually listened to it twice in the course of today I enjoyed it so much.  It didn't have to press my mind elevating SF button when the story is just this much fun.  I loved the tone, I loved the development, and I loved the fact that while I spotted every change of direction coming, I never spotted the one after the next (and by my estimate there are 4).  The other Resnick stories i've encountered on EP have hit appreciation but not enjoyment.  While this one was just great, on every level it aimed at.  I've long loved these SF stories based on bad puns (Sturgeon's best was "The Girl Had Guts", and Knight's best was "How to Serve Man"), where you ark out a whole bloody short story from one really bad pun.

I finished listening to it and just felt good afterwards.  Thank you Mike, for making my evening just better.



mike-resnick

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Reply #39 on: June 20, 2007, 11:28:13 PM
Simon:

OK, you get to live.

-- Mike



SFEley

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Reply #40 on: June 21, 2007, 04:42:27 AM
Hmph.  Missed paying attention to all of this for a day or so.

Ordinarily I'd be up in arms about even the hint of personal insults going back and forth, but...  Well, you all are just so cute.


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Loz

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Reply #41 on: June 21, 2007, 08:37:01 PM
I really enjoyed this story, I suppose that if we found out what Marvin got out of the deal that would have blown the 'cast's PG rating right? It also reminded me of that Asimov short about the professor who builds a time machine, brings Shakespeare to the 'present' [ie: the 60s] and enrolls him in a course on his work, only to have the teaching professor flunk poor Will for not knowing the first thing about what the great Bard's works mean.



eytanz

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Reply #42 on: June 21, 2007, 10:48:14 PM
It also reminded me of that Asimov short about the professor who builds a time machine, brings Shakespeare to the 'present' [ie: the 60s] and enrolls him in a course on his work, only to have the teaching professor flunk poor Will for not knowing the first thing about what the great Bard's works mean.

A variant on this joke was probably the best thing about the movie Back to School - Rodney Dangerfield's character hires Kurt Vonnegut to write an essay about his own work, which then gets an F (or some other low grade) for the same reason. What made it great was that Vonnegut played himself...



slic

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Reply #43 on: June 22, 2007, 11:33:16 AM
...even Slic hasn't stood up on this one.
A few reasons contributed to my "limp" posting.  The most notable being that the author already admitted to the fluffiness of the piece.  At that point, for me, it would have been like picking on the Squonk stories.  And I can never bring myself to argue Steve's story choices, only if I thought the piece was any good.
The other reason had to do with the story's age - after 17 years the story is rusted into place.  I'm not surprised that it has sold well or that it has been acted so much - it's a fun, simple piece with a giggle ending - all at the cost of an arrogant ass of a character.
Like Simon P (formerly madSimonJ) I appreciated the lack of explanation, in the same way that the Time Travel mechanism of "Twelve Monkeys" is never even seen on screen - it is pointless to the plot and if anything would detract from the story.

Personally, it was a "meh" for me, but I've never been a fan of mayo anyway (those crazy Dutch).

I'm curious to know if Mr. Resnick doesn't also hold the record for most published author at Escape Pod, off the top of my head I count 5.
edit:So I couldn't help myself and did a quick search on escapepod.org Episodes #55, 73, 82, 92, 101, 110.  I missed #55.

Quote from: Thaurismunths
The hero of Lord of the Rings isn't Frodo, he's just some simpering hobbit.  The real hero is Samwise.
Abso-freakin'-lutely!!  And that's all I need to say to that.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 11:41:59 AM by slic »



Swamp

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Reply #44 on: June 22, 2007, 03:03:38 PM
There appears to be a growing consensus (or weakening will) against those who keep standing up and saying "when I ordered this sf story, I did not ask for mayonnaise", even Slic hasn't stood up on this one.

Let's just make it clear.. I hate mayonnaise,  it's a continental thing that is turning up all over my food, and if I get mayonnaise between my crusty bap and my burger... Well, I am sending that burger back.

Mike Resnick likes mayonnaise - fair enough, I'll let him continue being a continental mayo-eating pervert.

But if I (and those like me) don't keep standing up and saying that I hate mayo, I'll get it on my bloody chips as well as my burger.

Down with mayo

...I've never been a fan of mayo anyway (those crazy Dutch).

OK, I have to admit that I don't get the mayo reference.  Maybe I'm just slow.  Is it a reference to this as a fluff piece?  Simon, please explain for us who are metaphoically challanged at the moment.



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Thaurismunths

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Reply #45 on: June 22, 2007, 03:45:23 PM
Hey. Why do you have to be hating on the Dutch like that?
Didn't we bring you those stylish wooden shoes? And windmills! And bikes on dykes ('come on, this is a family friendly site)! And Slavery!

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slic

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Reply #46 on: June 22, 2007, 05:43:55 PM
OK, I have to admit that I don't get the mayo reference.  Maybe I'm just slow.  Is it a reference to this as a fluff piece? 
The comment comes from the Dutch putting mayonnaise on french fries (see Pulp Fiction for corroboration) and hamburgers ,etc. 

I believe it's a reference to having stuff added to the story that isn't what we wanted or asked for, or perhaps, expected.  Going back to my old Dept store analogy - I don't expect to find Barbie clothes in with the kids clothes.  And to exaggerate the example if I ask for a burger and fires, I don't expect a drumstick with it.

Mr. Resnick's forte is the emotions of the story, as he put it "I have very little use for science in my stories, and even less interest in it.".  However, this is a science fiction podcast so it should be the norm that science is in the story.



Swamp

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Reply #47 on: June 22, 2007, 08:59:04 PM
The comment comes from the Dutch putting mayonnaise on french fries (see Pulp Fiction for corroboration) and hamburgers ,etc. 

I believe it's a reference to having stuff added to the story that isn't what we wanted or asked for, or perhaps, expected.  Going back to my old Dept store analogy - I don't expect to find Barbie clothes in with the kids clothes.  And to exaggerate the example if I ask for a burger and fires, I don't expect a drumstick with it.

Mr. Resnick's forte is the emotions of the story, as he put it "I have very little use for science in my stories, and even less interest in it.".  However, this is a science fiction podcast so it should be the norm that science is in the story.

Got it now, thanks.

I think there is room for hard sf and loosely science-based specutalive fiction.  I enjoy a good sampling of both, or anything in between.  And, while not a requirement, I do like a good emotional connection to the characters.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 09:02:56 PM by kmmrlatham »

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Simon

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Reply #48 on: June 23, 2007, 10:23:09 AM
OK, I have to admit that I don't get the mayo reference.  Maybe I'm just slow.  Is it a reference to this as a fluff piece?
The comment comes from the Dutch putting mayonnaise on french fries (see Pulp Fiction for corroboration) and hamburgers ,etc. 

I believe it's a reference to having stuff added to the story that isn't what we wanted or asked for, or perhaps, expected.  Going back to my old Dept store analogy - I don't expect to find Barbie clothes in with the kids clothes.  And to exaggerate the example if I ask for a burger and fires, I don't expect a drumstick with it.

Mr. Resnick's forte is the emotions of the story, as he put it "I have very little use for science in my stories, and even less interest in it.".  However, this is a science fiction podcast so it should be the norm that science is in the story.


Exactly what Slic just said...  It's becoming increasingly common on this little island (Britain) for foodstuffs to have ever increasing amounts of Mayonnaise slopped on them, its part of London's status as the financial/cultural capital of Europe. 

Basically tho, this is in reference to a long running argument between Slic, Resnick, MadSimonJ, myself and a few others that has been running on the threads of Antarean Dynasties, Travels With My Cats and Barnaby In Exile.  If you want the background I suggest you wander over there.



mike-resnick

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Reply #49 on: June 24, 2007, 05:04:16 AM
Steve --

As long as we're all still arguing about what science fiction is and isn't,
is it ok if I upload the editorial I have running in the current issue of
Jim Baen's Universe, which was inspired by all the discussion right
here on Escape Pod?

Mike Resnick