Author Topic: Artemis Rising Discussion  (Read 29259 times)

Lionman

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
  • Next time, I'll just let sleeping dogs lie.
    • The Practice of IT.
on: February 17, 2016, 05:21:05 PM
This story poked an ample number of buttons for me, and I've been procrastinating putting up my comments here, so I'm slightly disheartened to see that there aren't more comments.  But, be that as it may, I'll push onward.

First, a little warning.  I might sound slightly ranty, and I don't completely mean to be, just ..slightly.  Second, let me say that I worry about how my comments will come off, and that's another reason that I've been so hesitant to post.  I've sat in front of my email program more than once with a letter began to both feedback and the editor, both of which I eventually tossed into the trash instead of even letting the draft linger.  At any rate, onto my actual comments...

This was a really well put together story that touched on a lot of things that had meaning to me.  I feel like it's something that perhaps applies to us today.  Following, finding our purpose, even if it's what might be an unworthy or unhealthy purpose, and figuring out that sometimes there's hope even when we don't know where or how things or going to come together.  I felt like there were good messages in this, and at least for me, it connected with my experiences.

What bothers me about this story, is that it's in the Artemis Rising series.  Yes, it actually bothers me that we even have to HAVE the Artemis Rising series.  And all of these feelings, really have nothing to do with this story, or the works we hear in general.  It's my belief that this story was great!  It stands on its own merits!  It doesn't NEED to have a special opportunity in Artemis Rising.  And perhaps I'm in the minority, but a good story is a good story, regardless of the gender or gender identity of the writer. Period.  (This is the ranty party I warned you about.)  The whole purpose of reading or listening to a story is for the sake of the story, not the gender or gender identity of the writer.  A good writer just writes.  A good story is still a good story, written by a man, a woman, a Caucasian, an Indian, an Italian, an Englishman (or woman), or something else.  Gender Identity may help form the experiences of the writer, and thereby what they write, but it doesn't make a bad story good, or a good story bad, those are unlinked qualities.

The idea of Artemis Rising aggravates the tar out of me.  It implies that women and non-binary writers might not have good quality writing all the time, and therefore we should pay extra special attention.  I disagree completely.  As a listener of Escape Pod (and Pod Castle), I expect editors to bring us good stories.  Sometimes I think they're great, sometimes they're meh.  That's my problem.  But, I do expect editors to bring forward good stories, regardless of the source!

My apologies for sounding ranty.  The idea that we need a special showcase like Artemis Rising rubs my fur the wrong way.  I just want good writing, and if it's from a woman, great.  If it's from non-binary, great. If it's from a man, that's just fine too.  Please, just on with the good stories!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 06:31:53 PM by Ocicat »

Failure is an event, not a person.


Thunderscreech

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 350
Reply #1 on: February 17, 2016, 05:33:33 PM
Quote
The idea of Artemis Rising aggravates the tar out of me.  It implies that women and non-binary writers might not have good quality writing all the time, and therefore we should pay extra special attention.
That may be what you got from it, but it sure isn't what I did.  There's a quote: "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."  I don't know who created it, but it resonates with me every time I see people flipping their lids in various forums and Facebook posts about anything that doesn't tacitly primarily benefit the white-male friendly status quo.  The science fiction market has been stacked in favor of male writers for decades and it's hopelessly naive to believe otherwise.  Artemis Rising is a cool opportunity, not an attack or implied slight. 

If it really still aggravates you for some reason, consider treating it like a 'theme'.  That's not really 100% accurate, but maybe the outrage centers of the brain will be soothed by the idea that it's just a transient period and everything will go back to comfortable privilege shortly.



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #2 on: February 17, 2016, 05:42:50 PM
Perhaps the sub-rant (and my reply here) about Artemis Rising should be a separate thread?  This is the kind of topic that can quickly blow up with replies and, if you really like this story as you say, you are doing the author no favors by ranting in this specific thread because it is likely that the thread may be dominated by rants from people with a variety of opinions, and there will be a lot of things said.  Of those things said, there will certainly be things interesting and otherwise, valuable and otherwise, lots of opinions from all kinds of stances.  BUT none of those rants about Artemis Rising will be a discussion of this story, which is what this thread is for.

I agree that stories should be selected based on the stories themselves, BUT historically that has decidedly not been the case.  Straight white dudes dominated the field to a huge degree, not because other people were incapable of writing well, but because there was pressure both subtle and unsubtle against anyone else.  This is much less true today than it used to be, but it's still true to some degree, evidenced by gender imbalances in quite a few publications (Clarkesworld did a series about this with hard numbers, it was not just a vague impression).  This can certainly arise when the slush pile itself is unbalanced but that too does not happen in a vacuum--why is the slush pile unbalanced?  

(I admit that limited demographic slush windows don't feel like an ideal solution to something that IS a real problem, but I applaud their purpose and I think they can have some positive effect)



Not-a-Robot

  • Guest
Reply #3 on: February 17, 2016, 06:07:51 PM
Perhaps the sub-rant (and my reply here) about Artemis Rising should be a separate thread?  

I agree about the sub thread and withhold my comments until that happens.

Okay, now we have a sub thread.

I agree with the sentiment Lionman.  Two of my favorite stories this year were Brain Worms and White Whales (for its pure entertainment value) and Where Monsters Dance.  Both stories would have qualified for Artemis Rising, but were published outside of it.  I had the same feelings about the need for Artemis Rising as you up until I read some of the stuff on blogs posted by sad/rabid puppies people. I was astounded.   

Go an read some blogs... There is a need to point out that all people can write great genre fiction pertaining to all different themes and topics. 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 06:52:29 PM by Not-a-Robot »



Lionman

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
  • Next time, I'll just let sleeping dogs lie.
    • The Practice of IT.
Reply #4 on: February 17, 2016, 07:28:06 PM
The purpose of Artemis Rising isn't to provide a different category of story.  You certainly ought to like or dislike the story on its own merits! 

I generally have a problem with Artemis Rising as a whole.  It seems to focus on something, that to me, has little bearing on if the story is good or not.  It doesn't matter to me, hopefully to many, with the Gender Identity of the author is.  Good writing is good writing, it stands on its own merits.  Perhaps I don't understand the purpose of Artemis Rising.  From my point of view, it might as well be Native Son Rising.  We accept the author however and wherever they are, when the story is good, it's simply a good story.

Failure is an event, not a person.


matweller

  • EA Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
Reply #5 on: February 17, 2016, 07:37:27 PM
What bothers me about this story, is that it's in the Artemis Rising series.  Yes, it actually bothers me that we even have to HAVE the Artemis Rising series.  And all of these feelings, really have nothing to do with this story, or the works we hear in general.  It's my belief that this story was great!  It stands on its own merits!  It doesn't NEED to have a special opportunity in Artemis Rising.  And perhaps I'm in the minority, but a good story is a good story, regardless of the gender or gender identity of the writer. Period.  (This is the ranty party I warned you about.)  The whole purpose of reading or listening to a story is for the sake of the story, not the gender or gender identity of the writer.  A good writer just writes.  A good story is still a good story, written by a man, a woman, a Caucasian, an Indian, an Italian, an Englishman (or woman), or something else.  Gender Identity may help form the experiences of the writer, and thereby what they write, but it doesn't make a bad story good, or a good story bad, those are unlinked qualities.

The idea of Artemis Rising aggravates the tar out of me.  It implies that women and non-binary writers might not have good quality writing all the time, and therefore we should pay extra special attention.  I disagree completely.  As a listener of Escape Pod (and Pod Castle), I expect editors to bring us good stories.  Sometimes I think they're great, sometimes they're meh.  That's my problem.  But, I do expect editors to bring forward good stories, regardless of the source!
It's good that it bothers you. It should. We abhor it too, that's why Artemis Rising exists. You know the best way to make it stop? Encourage all of the other shows in the world to make an effort to find more diverse stories from more diverse authors. I can guarantee that we'll be happy to stop as soon as it's not an issue. And it's really not as much of an issue for EP as it is most places. Look at 2015's list, it was about 60/40 male authors to female authors and if you include the male authored stories with female protagonists, that number comes much closer to parity. But we're the exception. And some of that can be attributed to the market, but mostly it's just lazy effort on behalf of other editors.

In the meantime, let's also remember what rednecky Christians struggle with so much: raising up one person or group to equality does not force down everybody else. Having gay marriage does not detract from hetero marriage in any way. Letting black or Democrat Presidents appoint SCOTUS judges, as is their job, does not hurt white Republicans' ability to do it later. Letting Latinos become citizens and pay taxes does not make white folks' taxes less important. And highlighting female and non-binary authors four times will not shrink anybody's penis. I promise.



Lionman

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
  • Next time, I'll just let sleeping dogs lie.
    • The Practice of IT.
Reply #6 on: February 17, 2016, 07:38:08 PM
I agree with the sentiment Lionman.  Two of my favorite stories this year were Brain Worms and White Whales (for its pure entertainment value) and Where Monsters Dance.  Both stories would have qualified for Artemis Rising, but were published outside of it.  I had the same feelings about the need for Artemis Rising as you up until I read some of the stuff on blogs posted by sad/rabid puppies people. I was astounded. 

I think the idea, particularly in science fiction and fantasy, that we're still biased by the privileged white male, is a horrid one.  Not to say that it might not be true.  But many of us are getting older, we're white, we're males, (does that make us privileged by default), and we're here to move the tides of the idea that we might need something like Artemis Rising at all.  Look at sports.  A good football or baseball player is still a good player, regardless of the color of their skin.  Maybe we have a long road to travel still.  But, are we helping or harming ourselves in traveling that road by saying we need to have special attention given to this?  And if we do need special attention, why don't we have a Native Son Rising event?  This is a sub-class of people who have had, and still have, a great deal of oppression.

We don't really thrash against the idea that gender-bias makes no difference, when we choose to point it out with events like Artemis Rising.  (Reminder: Don't get me wrong, I like a good story, no matter who wrote it.)

Failure is an event, not a person.


Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #7 on: February 17, 2016, 08:21:57 PM
But many of us are getting older, we're white, we're males, (does that make us privileged by default), and we're here to move the tides of the idea that we might need something like Artemis Rising at all. 

I am a white male that is getting older, and I don't really feel it's my place to decide when something like this isn't needed.

I see some poor treatment of women in some contexts but when I see it it's usually fairly subtle. But, not being a woman, I lack the evidence to say that women don't experience the kind of treatment this is aiming to push back against. 

I would rather listen to what women are saying, than to declare their concerns unnecessary.



Thunderscreech

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 350
Reply #8 on: February 17, 2016, 08:33:19 PM

I would rather listen to what women are saying, than to declare their concerns unnecessary.

I wish to register enthusiastic agreement and support for this.  Ideally, I'd do it in a way that extends the idea in the way dialogue does, but it's really perfect so all I can do here is highlight it with a quote and a couple sentences of padding. 



vf-xx

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Reply #9 on: February 17, 2016, 09:42:09 PM
The purpose of Artemis Rising isn't to provide a different category of story.  You certainly ought to like or dislike the story on its own merits! 

I generally have a problem with Artemis Rising as a whole.  It seems to focus on something, that to me, has little bearing on if the story is good or not.  It doesn't matter to me, hopefully to many, with the Gender Identity of the author is.  Good writing is good writing, it stands on its own merits.  Perhaps I don't understand the purpose of Artemis Rising.  From my point of view, it might as well be Native Son Rising.  We accept the author however and wherever they are, when the story is good, it's simply a good story.
I share your sentiment on the topic, and your reservations. It's hard to take issue with this sort of topic, because it's so easy to get bashed on over it.

That said, I've settled myself on the series by the following: as a passive listener who is not engaged with trying to influence what is played, the onus of selecting stories, regardless of author status, is up to the Editors. If they ultimately feel like they need to run a special series, then that's their choice. I'm still free to listen to the stories on their own merits.

Maybe I'm optimistic here, but I think that selections should always be done on the merit/quality of the story alone.

Maybe they should try doing what orchestra's have been doing: blind audition.

Just a thought.



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #10 on: February 17, 2016, 10:10:15 PM
That said, I've settled myself on the series by the following: as a passive listener who is not engaged with trying to influence what is played, the onus of selecting stories, regardless of author status, is up to the Editors. If they ultimately feel like they need to run a special series, then that's their choice. I'm still free to listen to the stories on their own merits.

Maybe I'm optimistic here, but I think that selections should always be done on the merit/quality of the story alone.

Maybe they should try doing what orchestra's have been doing: blind audition.

Just a thought.

That's sort of missing the point, though. There are two factors you are missing:

1. Escape Pod runs 52 stories a year (in an ideal year, where no episodes are missed). There are more than 52 high quality stories submitted a year. Escape Pod (and its sister podcasts) aren't struggling to find stories to accept - it is in the position of being selective.

2. Blind submissions would be a good solution if EA was concerned about its own biases. And as an aside, that is a concern that EA takes seriously. But that's not what Artemis Rising is about.

Artemis Rising is an event where Escape Artists has decided to use its ability to select stories in a way that is meant to make a statement. And the
statement is that there is an overall disparity between how male authors and how female (and non-binary) authors are treated - by both publishers and audiences. It does so without sacrificing story quality, because there is no need to sacrifice story quality.

Lionman says he dislikes that Artemis Rising is necessary, and because of that he doesn't think EA should run it. That's like saying that you won't take your medication because you resent being ill. If you take Artemis Rising out of context, it is clearly biased - that doesn't need pointing out. You can't say "we'll only run stories by women and non-binary authors" without explicitly excluding men. But taking it out of context of what's happening in SF as a whole is missing the point entirely.

If there was a perceived quality drop with Artemis Rising, then that would be a valid complaint. But no one is saying that. Rather the complaint seems to be "Inequality is bad, but so are attempts to explicitly counter it". Because I can't resist an analogy, let me provide another one - imagine you were in a 4-person kayak race. You are supposed to go in a straight line. But because of a miscommunication, the team rowed too strongly to the right, and now the kayak is pointing the wrong way. Lionman's criticism is like saying is like saying "I don't like that you're facing the wrong way. But you can't correct it by rowing on the left side, because that is just as unequal as the rowing that got you in trouble in the first place. Rather, you must row straight". But if you're already pointing in the wrong direction, rowing straight isn't going to get you were you want.



Not-a-Robot

  • Guest
Reply #11 on: February 17, 2016, 10:40:31 PM
And it's really not as much of an issue for EP as it is most places. Look at 2015's list, it was about 60/40 male authors to female authors and if you include the male authored stories with female protagonists, that number comes much closer to parity.

Speaking from a scientific point of view, the problem isn't in the numbers that a magazine publishes, it's in the submissions.

If a magazine gets 80% male submissions and publishes 80% male authors, they show no bias in their story selection.  The question that needs to be asked is: why are there so many male submission?  An action like Artemis Rising may make more females want to submit to a magazine or start writing stories im general.  Furthermore, an event like Artemis Rising may increase the number of female submissions year round, because they show openess in thier story selection.  In that case, it would be good marketing to attact female authors.

We also have to remember that Hard Science fiction mostly contains sciences like physics, chemistry, computer sciences and math which are still male dominated sciences (biology is the exception).  Hard science fiction magazines may attract more males than females simply because of inequity in the science society.  This is, unfortunately, a vicious circle, because many physical scientists enter the field because of fiction they read as a child.  They, in turn, still read the fiction when they get older, forcing the hard science fiction market in the direction of males...

Events like Artemis Rising may break cycles like this, showing young females that they not only have a place in science fiction, but also in physical sciences.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 10:52:37 PM by Not-a-Robot »



matweller

  • EA Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
Reply #12 on: February 18, 2016, 02:29:48 PM
You're not wrong, but a couple caveats bear mention:
Speaking from a scientific point of view, the problem isn't in the numbers that a magazine publishes, it's in the submissions.

If a magazine gets 80% male submissions and publishes 80% male authors, they show no bias in their story selection.
CAVEAT: Generally speaking, as the number of submissions rises, the number of quality, usable submissions rises in a parabolically declining proportion.

We also have to remember that Hard Science fiction mostly contains sciences like physics, chemistry, computer sciences and math which are still male dominated sciences (biology is the exception).
CAVEAT: This would be more of a factor if we dealt in exclusively "hard sci-fi." Fortunately, the definition of "hard sci-fi" varies a lot, and in any event we don't deal in exclusively or even mostly hard sci-fi.



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #13 on: February 18, 2016, 02:49:03 PM
Maybe I'm optimistic here, but I think that selections should always be done on the merit/quality of the story alone.

Maybe they should try doing what orchestra's have been doing: blind audition.

Just a thought.

For what it's worth, I agree that blind submissions are a good idea to remove any unconscious bias from the process.  And, in fact, Escape Pod's guidelines (and Cast of Wonders's guidelines) now ask for manuscripts to be submitted without author name attached.

I think that's great.  I think that it's the best way to make it clear that story trumps all.  I think that, practically speaking, it has more of an effect on the bias of name-fame.  With names attached one might be inclined to accept a mediocre story from a big name over a great story from a lesser name--with names stripped off the stories have to be as good regardless of name.

My own slushpile, when I occasionally open for submissions, is blind for that same reason.  I don't have solid numbers about the demographics of the submitters, but of the stories accepted 14 of the 25 were written by women with the name of the author not being a factor in the actual choices.

But, like Not-a-Robot said, a skewed slushpile skews the result, and it's worth considering why a slushpile is skewed.   Often it is because women don't feel welcome at a publication.  Women are more likely to self-reject from what I understand--which I think is a result of constantly being told in so many aspects of their lives "you don't belong here" in ways both subtle and unsubtle, while men are used to being entitled .  if a publication publishes mostly men, then more women will choose not to submit, this will skew the slushpile toward men which means that even unbiased choices will skew the result toward men, which will skew the slushpile more toward men, and so on.  It can be a destructive cycle that, left uncorrected, causes an increasing skew toward men submitting and being published.  An anonymous slushpile can help some, I think.  Having guidelines that clearly state that the publication is interested in diverse submitters can help.  Actively soliciting stories from specific authors of different demographics can help.  And projects like Artemis Rising can help, as Not-a-Robot said, by explicitly welcoming women in during a short period of the year and hopefully women will feel more welcome during the rest of the year.  Their stories still have to be good, it's not a matter of quality.  

Regarding the destructive cycle of skewed slushpile causing skewed authors stats, the late issues of F&SF with Gordon Van Gelder as editor suffered from this.  I spoke to many women who stopped submitting the more the publication skewed to publishing men, and one of his last issues had zero women in the table of contents.  Charles Coleman Finlay has done a good job trying to correct this skew, I think, actively welcoming women to the publication and things have turned around quite a bit since then.  I'm not even saying that Van Gelder was actively choosing to not accept women's stories, but over many years the destructive cycle can really wreak havoc on what gets published in a magazine.

When I listen and comment on the stories, I also think it's important not to cut these stories any more slack than I would cut any other stories.  It's important to me that when I say "In Their Image" is a great story, I don't MEAN "it's a great story for fiction written by a woman."  I think it is a great story, period.  I have quite enjoyed the Artemis Rising stories both last year and this year.  "Boris's Bar" was one of my favorites of the year, bar none in 2015.  "In Their Image" likewise this year.  There are also other stories that I didn't care for, and I have said so... the same as I would for a story didn't like during any other month of the year.  



Not-a-Robot

  • Guest
Reply #14 on: February 18, 2016, 03:14:54 PM
Interesting point on the submission numbers

Quote
CAVEAT: This would be more of a factor if we dealt in exclusively "hard sci-fi." Fortunately, the definition of "hard sci-fi" varies a lot, and in any event we don't deal in exclusively or even mostly hard sci-fi.

I wasn't directing this comment toward EP  ;)  Besides, I'm not a big hard sci-fi fan.


Quote
I don't have solid numbers about the demographics of the submitters,

I submitted a story to recompse (Alliteration Ink) and they sent a survey (not linked to submission) asking for demographic information.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 03:19:47 PM by Not-a-Robot »



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #15 on: February 18, 2016, 03:31:08 PM
I submitted a story to recompse (Alliteration Ink) and they sent a survey (not linked to submission) asking for demographic information.

I have seen those before and I think they're a good idea.  I just haven't done the legwork for my own publication. :)



danooli

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1745
    • Who Doesn't Love Stories?
Reply #16 on: February 18, 2016, 03:34:23 PM
I think that the fact that people can be annoyed by the existence of an event like Artemis Rising speaks volumes on the necessity of it.



matweller

  • EA Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
Reply #17 on: February 18, 2016, 03:46:57 PM
When I listen and comment on the stories, I also think it's important not to cut these stories any more slack than I would cut any other stories.  It's important to me that when I say "In Their Image" is a great story, I don't MEAN "it's a great story for fiction written by a woman."  I think it is a great story, period.  I have quite enjoyed the Artemis Rising stories both last year and this year.  "Boris's Bar" was one of my favorites of the year, bar none in 2015.  "In Their Image" likewise this year.  There are also other stories that I didn't care for, and I have said so... the same as I would for a story didn't like during any other month of the year.  
Agreed. Honestly, I'm amazed it's an issue for anybody. I know I only speak from my own experience, but absolutely nothing about the author influences my choice to read anything, I only see the words on the page. There are times I'll come across something in a work and be like, "well, that was terribly sexist if the author is [gender] but tolerable if the author is [gender]" and then I'll check to see who wrote it, but otherwise I'm generally oblivious.

INTERESTING SIDE THOUGHT: It just occurred to me that it could lead to an interesting discussion if a biological male who identifies female said something severely degrading to women. I'm sure it has come up before. I'm sure it will come up a lot more in the future.

Back to the original thought... Don't get me wrong, though. I am 100% aware that there are biases from 20 different people that involved that piece getting into my hands in the first place. Which is why I'm (at the very least) not concerned about Artemis Rising having negative effects -- I know the reason for it has nothing to do with me, so I am free to just enjoy the story and not worry about any of the politics behind it. It's needed because so many other people are incompetent. I am not. </egotrip>



Moritz

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
Reply #18 on: February 18, 2016, 06:02:40 PM
I really like Artemis Rising for the reasons pointed out above. In fact, I already wanted to say that last year, there just wasn't a suitable thread for it  ;)

There's another reason I support Artemis Rising: I love "themed months" on Escape Artists' casts in general! I fondly remember a "horror in SF and Fantasy" one October, because of Halloween I guess, and the one with elves. I think there could be an "authors from non-Western cultures" month, or anything else, and I'd love it.

if it's relevant for the discussion: I am a white male and usually viewed as a member of the privileged group where I live, even though I am of mixed ethnicity etc. I support efforts to further underprivileged groups.



Fenrix

  • Curmudgeonly Co-Editor of PseudoPod
  • Editor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3996
  • I always lock the door when I creep by daylight.
Reply #19 on: February 18, 2016, 09:27:28 PM
You're not wrong, but a couple caveats bear mention:
Speaking from a scientific point of view, the problem isn't in the numbers that a magazine publishes, it's in the submissions.

If a magazine gets 80% male submissions and publishes 80% male authors, they show no bias in their story selection.
CAVEAT: Generally speaking, as the number of submissions rises, the number of quality, usable submissions rises in a parabolically declining proportion.


I'm not sure I'd agree with that. During 6 months of 2015 PseudoPod received double the submissions of what we received for all of 2014. We had to reject a lot of excellent stories that would have made great episodes. And we're still comfortably ahead on purchases for the calendar.

All cat stories start with this statement: “My mother, who was the first cat, told me this...”


Lionman

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
  • Next time, I'll just let sleeping dogs lie.
    • The Practice of IT.
Reply #20 on: February 18, 2016, 10:17:44 PM
I'm going to try to just say one more thing and then let someone else have the final word.  I was coming home this afternoon trying to figure out why it was that I wasn't a fan of the Artemis Rising itself.  Certainly I do not want to argue with folks on the internet all day or night.  Besides, I'd like to think we're all here for the purpose of hearing a good story.

The thing that seems to be a recurring theme in all our posts is that we all like a good story, regardless of the author being male, female, canine or feline.  Simply put: We're here because we want to hear a good story.

It's then that I realized why, I think, that Artemis Rising bothers me so:  It feels like the Escape Artists community is preaching to the choir.  The folks who listen to the podcasts Escape Artists puts out are here for a good story.  I'd like to think, and I admit I could be wrong, that we don't care if it's a man, a woman, or a non-binary author, if the story is good.  And I also believe, that the editors of Escape Artists are primarily focused on bringing us stories they believe are good or great stories, and aren't typically looking for a specific orientation of the author; the story stands on its own merits.

If I'm wrong, I'm sorry for having stirred all this up with my post.  I believe that the community of Escape Artists already sings the praises of a good story, without care for the authors gender or other bias.  Let's keep singing the praises of good stories, let's lift them up and be an example of support and action and not merely a beating drum or clanging bell crying out about the inequality.  Make it about the story, everything else should follow that.

Failure is an event, not a person.


Varda

  • Rebound
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2710
  • Definitely not an android.
Reply #21 on: February 18, 2016, 10:42:57 PM
I think that the fact that people can be annoyed by the existence of an event like Artemis Rising speaks volumes on the necessity of it.

I want to write this on paper just so I can draw all the hearts and stars around it that it deserves. Well said, Danooli, and dead on!

For cripe's sake, you guys, stop and consider for a moment that there are times in all our lives when we find ourselves not the center of things. And that is okay! You wouldn't go to someone else's birthday party and whine about why is she getting presents and why is everyone singing the song for her and not you. That would be ungracious and ill-mannered, and everyone else present might be understandably boggled at why you can't just eat your (free!) cake and enjoy the party with the rest of the guests.

There's a reason you're not seeing women and nonbinary people complaining about Artemis Rising: it's because we're all enjoying the party very much, thank you. In fact, we baked the cake and we put up the balloons and we sent out all the invitations. We are very proud that so many world-class authors submitted their very best stories to our special call (yes, all these authors specifically *opted in* to this event). We're very proud of all our female staffers for the extra work they put in at all levels, from slushing to guest editing to hosting to narrating and audio production more, and how this event allows us to celebrate *them* just as much as our female and nonbinary authors.

We're all having a great time. You're invited to the party too, and we want you there! You don't have to come, and you don't even have to compliment the cake if you*do* come, but don't be That Guy. Don't be the ungracious dude loudly complaining about how we shouldn't ever have parties at all, because you can eat cake for any occasion and anyway it tastes the same every day of the year. It's someone's birthday, and she is enjoying the nice party we threw for her, and that's something I hope we can all get behind.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 10:45:07 PM by Varda »

Medical Microfiction: Stories About Science
http://rckjones.wordpress.com


Bdoomed

  • Pseudopod Tiger
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5891
  • Mmm. Tiger.
Reply #22 on: February 18, 2016, 11:16:13 PM
We're all having a great time. You're invited to the party too, and we want you there! You don't have to come, and you don't even have to compliment the cake if you*do* come, but don't be That Guy. Don't be the ungracious dude loudly complaining about how we shouldn't ever have parties at all, because you can eat cake for any occasion and anyway it tastes the same every day of the year. It's someone's birthday, and she is enjoying the nice party we threw for her, and that's something I hope we can all get behind.

Preach!

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Windup

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1226
Reply #23 on: February 19, 2016, 04:00:51 AM
Here's a minor illustration of unconscious bias, skewed perception, or whatever you want to call it.

I'm working on a novel right now, about 88,000 words, and I'm currently about halfway through a final copy edit. I've been working on it off and on for nearly two years, and I've spent around 86 hours on it since the first of the year. So, I should have intimate, top-of-the head familiarity with its contents, right?

The book's protagonist is a woman, as is the second most important character. The third POV character is male. If you had asked me a couple of days ago, I would have told you, "There are hardly any men in this book."

What happened a couple of days ago is that in response to a challenge in a blog, I actually went through the book and counted the characters.  Of the thirty characters who have a name and a significant interaction with one of the POV characters, twenty are men.

Turn that thought over in your mind for a second or two. (I had to.)

In a book which I've been working on and thinking about almost constantly for the better part of a year, the men outnumbered the women two to one and my brain was recording that as "hardly any."

I suspect that same mental reflex lies at the root of many of the "why do we have to give women special consideration? They're all over the place." reactions that events like Artemis Rising seems to provoke.

I'd like to live in a world where events like Artemis Rising weren't necessary -- where there weren't any special challenges for women writers. But at the moment, I'm a pretty good illustration of why we aren't there, yet.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 02:26:30 PM by Windup »

"My whole job is in the space between 'should be' and 'is.' It's a big space."


matweller

  • EA Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
Reply #24 on: February 19, 2016, 04:42:21 AM
I'm not sure I'd agree with that. During 6 months of 2015 PseudoPod received double the submissions of what we received for all of 2014. We had to reject a lot of excellent stories that would have made great episodes. And we're still comfortably ahead on purchases for the calendar.
Sure, but did you get double the number of quality, usable submissions? You may have, I wasn't speaking specifically about anybody, just generally what I have seen in a variety of venues accepting content submissions from non-staff contributors. But more to the point, I was really just illustrating that there are reasons the 80%:80% assumption might not be true. Perhaps it would be more precise to say that the gender ratio for submissions does not necessarily directly correlate to the ratio of usable content that comes out the other side of the slush machine.



danooli

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1745
    • Who Doesn't Love Stories?
Reply #25 on: February 19, 2016, 12:29:06 PM
I think that the fact that people can be annoyed by the existence of an event like Artemis Rising speaks volumes on the necessity of it.

I want to write this on paper just so I can draw all the hearts and stars around it that it deserves. Well said, Danooli, and dead on!

Thank you Varda!

We're all having a great time. You're invited to the party too, and we want you there! You don't have to come, and you don't even have to compliment the cake if you*do* come, but don't be That Guy. Don't be the ungracious dude loudly complaining about how we shouldn't ever have parties at all, because you can eat cake for any occasion and anyway it tastes the same every day of the year. It's someone's birthday, and she is enjoying the nice party we threw for her, and that's something I hope we can all get behind.

I absolutely love this analogy.


In a book which I've been working on and thinking about almost constantly for the better part of a year, the men outnumbered the women two to one and my brain was recording that as "hardly any."

That certainly illustrates the topic and, yes, issue, very well.



Not-a-Robot

  • Guest
Reply #26 on: February 19, 2016, 01:20:45 PM

In a book which I've been working on and thinking about almost constantly for the better part of a year, the men outnumbered the women two to one and my brain was recording that as "hardly any."

That certainly illustrates the topic and, yes, issue, very well.


As a rule, this illustrates a bias that Windup has (keep in mind that I am using the scientific meaning of bias). As he is male (according to his profile) he most likely finds it easier to identify with male character, thus his mind remembers the exceptions (the females) more often than the males.  Does this make Windup sexist?  Absolutely not.  He's just identifying with similar individuals. 

For a female author, this bias should be the reverse.  I have no data on hand, but I do not think that this is the case.  We spend so much time reading male characters (Try to find a woman in a lead role in Foundation, even Ursula K. Le Guin's The Dispossessed and Joanne K. Rowling's Harry Potter are disproportionate if I remember correctly...) that women too may share this bias.

Of course, there are some pieces where the author can't help a disproportion (Stories about a girl's boarding school, or stories about a high school wrestling team), but Windup is doing the right thing by being mindful of the bias.

As a side note, my lab is 10:4 female to male.  The other labs around me are similar.  So if you are writing a story in a biology lab, and you want your proportions to reflect reality, put more females in it than males.       



danooli

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1745
    • Who Doesn't Love Stories?
Reply #27 on: February 19, 2016, 01:28:10 PM
Does this make Windup sexist?  Absolutely not.  He's just identifying with similar individuals. 

For the record, I never intended to imply Windup is sexist. If anyone interpreted my comment in that regard, I apologize.



Not-a-Robot

  • Guest
Reply #28 on: February 19, 2016, 01:29:33 PM
Does this make Windup sexist?  Absolutely not.  He's just identifying with similar individuals.  

For the record, I never intended to imply Windup is sexist. If anyone interpreted my comment in that regard, I apologize.

I didn't think that you did.  I just wanted to highlight the difference between a bias and a prejudice and discuss the issue that you alluded to.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 01:36:16 PM by Not-a-Robot »



Varda

  • Rebound
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2710
  • Definitely not an android.
Reply #29 on: February 19, 2016, 02:06:54 PM
Really helpful distinguishing between subconscious bias and conscious prejudice, Not-A-Robot. Very well said. If anyone's curious about seeing how this applies to themselves, I recommend checking out Harvard's Implicit Association Test to see how strong your own subconscious associations are on a variety of topics.

Quote
For a female author, this bias should be the reverse.  I have no data on hand, but I do not think that this is the case.  We spend so much time reading male characters (Try to find a woman in a lead role in Foundation, even Ursula K. Le Guin's The Dispossessed and Joanne K. Rowling's Harry Potter are disproportionate if I remember correctly...) that women too may share this bias.

This lines up well with the research data I've seen on this topic. It's reasonably well-documented that people perceive a group composed of roughly 30% women and 70% men as being "gender balanced" if they don't actually take measurements, both quantitatively (as in Windup's example of overestimating the number of named women in a novel) and in spoken language (when women speak up more than 30% of the time in a meeting, they're perceived as "talking too much" or "dominating the conversation.") And since we're talking about a biology lab, here's a recent study on male biology students underestimating the contributions of the female students. Interestingly, in this case the bias only went one direction. The women were much more accurate and fair in their estimates of the men than vice versa.

This applies to short fiction zines as well. The Sad Puppies incident of last year was especially laughable in that it bemoaned too many women getting Hugo nominations, and insinuated these women hadn't earned it, when the very easy-to-assemble data shows a clear trend toward gender equality in the award. Which is what we'd statistically expect, given that creative talent has never been shown to correlate with gender. But we *perceive* a gender imbalance because we're not used to what equality looks like. The gender divide runs through SF publication in particular right along that 70/30 line.

But interestingly, some of the most prestigious and well-decorated zines (such as Lightspeed) have no gender divide. There are a lot of ways they manage this, but two of the easiest ways to attract high-quality stories from really gifted female author is 1) explicitly *asking* women to send you their stories (which counteracts the Dunning-Kruger Effect), and 2) making female editorial presence publicly visible (which counteracts the outward Sausage-Fest perception you get when your editors and hosts are predominantly male).

Artemis Rising, incidentally, allows us to do both, and have a hell of a lot of fun doing it. So let's eat cake and enjoy the party, because everything is better with cake! :D

Medical Microfiction: Stories About Science
http://rckjones.wordpress.com


Not-a-Robot

  • Guest
Reply #30 on: February 19, 2016, 02:47:21 PM
And since we're talking about a biology lab, here's a recent study on male biology students underestimating the contributions of the female students.

I've seen that study. *disappointing*

The female post docs and professor that I work with make it very hard for me to underestimate their contributions  ;).



Fenrix

  • Curmudgeonly Co-Editor of PseudoPod
  • Editor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3996
  • I always lock the door when I creep by daylight.
Reply #31 on: February 19, 2016, 03:09:02 PM

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. During 6 months of 2015 PseudoPod received double the submissions of what we received for all of 2014. We had to reject a lot of excellent stories that would have made great episodes. And we're still comfortably ahead on purchases for the calendar.


Sure, but did you get double the number of quality, usable submissions? You may have, I wasn't speaking specifically about anybody, just generally what I have seen in a variety of venues accepting content submissions from non-staff contributors. But more to the point, I was really just illustrating that there are reasons the 80%:80% assumption might not be true. Perhaps it would be more precise to say that the gender ratio for submissions does not necessarily directly correlate to the ratio of usable content that comes out the other side of the slush machine.


Without running numbers, I'd say that we did. We rejected a lot more great things (as opposed to just rejecting good things). The pass-through percentage to the editors stayed about the same, and the proportion of gems in the pile was about the same. The number of episodes available per year did not go up.

All cat stories start with this statement: “My mother, who was the first cat, told me this...”


eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #32 on: February 19, 2016, 09:01:54 PM
This applies to short fiction zines as well. The Sad Puppies incident of last year was especially laughable in that it bemoaned too many women getting Hugo nominations, and insinuated these women hadn't earned it, when the very easy-to-assemble data shows a clear trend toward gender equality in the award. Which is what we'd statistically expect, given that creative talent has never been shown to correlate with gender. But we *perceive* a gender imbalance because we're not used to what equality looks like. The gender divide runs through SF publication in particular right along that 70/30 line.

I feel like you're giving the puppies too much credit here - I don't think most of them perceived a gender imbalance where there wasn't one. I think most of them were very well aware there wasn't a gender imbalance favouring women, they just explicitly wanted to maintain a significant gender imbalance favouring men.



Windup

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1226
Reply #33 on: February 20, 2016, 04:22:59 AM
Does this make Windup sexist?  Absolutely not.  He's just identifying with similar individuals. 

For the record, I never intended to imply Windup is sexist. If anyone interpreted my comment in that regard, I apologize.

If by "sexist" you mean "deliberately treating women as less than full human beings and encouraging others to do the same," I certainly didn't take it that way, and it would take a pretty tortured interpretation of what you wrote to read it that way.

"My whole job is in the space between 'should be' and 'is.' It's a big space."


FireTurtle

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 898
Reply #34 on: February 21, 2016, 03:19:09 AM
We're all having a great time. You're invited to the party too, and we want you there! You don't have to come, and you don't even have to compliment the cake if you*do* come, but don't be That Guy. Don't be the ungracious dude loudly complaining about how we shouldn't ever have parties at all, because you can eat cake for any occasion and anyway it tastes the same every day of the year. It's someone's birthday, and she is enjoying the nice party we threw for her, and that's something I hope we can all get behind.

Preach!

I'm totally, totally enjoying the party. It's great to finally HAVE a party! (And Varda, as always, gets +1 Internet for Best Analogy)

“My imagination makes me human and makes me a fool; it gives me all the world and exiles me from it.”
Ursula K. LeGuin


DerangedMind

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 104
Reply #35 on: March 02, 2016, 07:33:51 PM
I'd like to thank the staff and authors for making this a great Artemis Rising event.  I enjoyed most of the stories, and loved the fact that so many talented writers submitted stories for the event.
 



trogs

  • Guest
Reply #36 on: March 02, 2016, 07:37:25 PM
I've listened to Escape Pod for 5+ years.

For the first time, I've made a profile, exclusively for the purpose of logging in here and telling you guys to please never do any "affirmative action" stuff like this again.

The stories are noticeably less good. You do a disservice to women, and to Escape Pod.

Science fiction is either good, or it's not. The genitalia of the author shouldn't enter into it.



Thunderscreech

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 350
Reply #37 on: March 02, 2016, 09:12:30 PM
I've listened to Escape Pod for 5+ years.

For the first time, I've made a profile, exclusively for the purpose of logging in here and telling you guys to please never do any "affirmative action" stuff like this again.

The stories are noticeably less good. You do a disservice to women, and to Escape Pod.

Science fiction is either good, or it's not. The genitalia of the author shouldn't enter into it.
This post is exactly why I think Escape Pod should not only keep doing this, but maybe even do it more often.  Trog is entitled to his (I have no doubt about pronouns here) opinion but I think the best way to change that opinion and make the world a less-shitty place is to keep up the good work.  I dig Artemis Rising and respectfully submit my opinion as a nullification of the above poster.  :)



adrianh

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 752
    • quietstars
Reply #38 on: March 02, 2016, 09:35:00 PM
Thoroughly enjoyed AR this year, as I did last year.

In fact in the case of EP & PC I probably like the editorial voice a bit more than normal (not that I hate current EP or anything — but tastes differ and I think the Eley/Tolbert/Lafferty era was a bit more aligned with my personal preferences than Norm Sherman's stewardship — but my memory is poor so I may just be making shit up ;-)

It's introduced me to some new authors. I enjoyed the majority of stories. Certainly not seen any drop in quality.

Carry on!



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #39 on: March 02, 2016, 10:12:20 PM
Yeah, quite a few of the Artemis Rising stories have been unqualified amazing, IMO. 

(Not all of them, but I'm particular enough that not all of any group of stories is likely to hit me with all cylinders.  I don't take that as a dip in quality but a matter of taste.)



danooli

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1745
    • Who Doesn't Love Stories?
Reply #40 on: March 03, 2016, 02:03:14 AM
Yeah, quite a few of the Artemis Rising stories have been unqualified amazing, IMO. 

(Not all of them, but I'm particular enough that not all of any group of stories is likely to hit me with all cylinders.  I don't take that as a dip in quality but a matter of taste.)

I don't like every story, but I don't like everything of anything. On my favorite albums, theres always a song I like least. In every book I love, there's always a character I dislike. Every TV show I watch has an episode that I wished I would have skipped.

Nothing can appeal to 100% of the people 100% of the time.

But that's ok.

That's what makes the world interesting.



trogs

  • Guest
Reply #41 on: March 03, 2016, 06:11:07 PM
Trog is entitled to his (I have no doubt about pronouns here) opinion but I think the best way to change that opinion

This is a science fiction podcast.

I get that your goal of changing the opinions, and nullifying the opinions, of the listeners, is real important to you.

But I don't think gender politics should be a factor in what story goes up, and I don't think we should have to listen through monologues about gender theory bookending our science fiction podcast.



Thunderscreech

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 350
Reply #42 on: March 03, 2016, 06:19:59 PM
This is a science fiction podcast.

Is there something inherently non-sciencefiction about stories authored by women?  I ask because I've been getting science fiction stories during the Artemis Rising event; if you haven't been, then maybe there's a technical problem with your podcast software worth checking.
I get that your goal of changing the opinions, and nullifying the opinions, of the listeners, is real important to you.
I'm busted, that's me in a nutshell.  Literally the most important thing in my life was that time I could respond to your post, now I'm like one of those expended party poppers with no purpose but to clutter landfills, forever reliving memories of that one time I got to blow confetti into the air.

But I don't think gender politics should be a factor in what story goes up, and I don't think we should have to listen through monologues about gender theory bookending our science fiction podcast.
Good news!  Unless you're involved in some sort of Clockwork Orange situation where, between bits of the ol' Ludwig Van you're being force-fed women-written science fiction and commentary, you can skip the introductions and outros.  Heck, you can even skip the entire episodes themselves! 

Trogs, take this sock.  You are a free elf, you are beholden to nobody evermore on this subject. 



matweller

  • EA Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
Reply #43 on: March 04, 2016, 02:42:27 PM
It's just not open to be changed right now. This is something we like to do. This is something that has overwhelming support from the audience. This is something we plan to continue for the foreseeable future.

Your input is welcome. It has been heard and understood. It just doesn't jive with our priorities at this moment.



trogs

  • Guest
Reply #44 on: March 04, 2016, 07:55:20 PM
Fair enough, Matweller.

For what it's worth, I agree that blind submissions are a good idea to remove any unconscious bias from the process.  And, in fact, Escape Pod's guidelines (and Cast of Wonders's guidelines) now ask for manuscripts to be submitted without author name attached.

I think that's great.  I think that it's the best way to make it clear that story trumps all.  I think that, practically speaking, it has more of an effect on the bias of name-fame.  With names attached one might be inclined to accept a mediocre story from a big name over a great story from a lesser name--with names stripped off the stories have to be as good regardless of name.

My own slushpile, when I occasionally open for submissions, is blind for that same reason.  I don't have solid numbers about the demographics of the submitters, but of the stories accepted 14 of the 25 were written by women with the name of the author not being a factor in the actual choices.

This sounds like a non-exclusive way of removing the gender bias of the reviewer.

As Unblinking says, it also removes the name/fame bias of the reviewer, neutralizes affirmative action stigma, does not encourage "opinion nullification" / general political behaviour, and will also help to remove ethnic bias. Just quality.

If not everyone at Escape Pod already does as Unblinking does, maybe you should experiment with a Snowblind Winter, of blind submissions only. People might even give a crack at guessing the sex or identity of the author, if they care about that kind of thing. I think they should be encouraged not to care, though I realize that this is not very fashionable.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 08:01:47 PM by trogs »



Fenrix

  • Curmudgeonly Co-Editor of PseudoPod
  • Editor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3996
  • I always lock the door when I creep by daylight.
Reply #45 on: March 04, 2016, 08:07:51 PM

If not everyone at Escape Pod already does as Unblinking does, maybe you should experiment with a Snowblind Winter, of blind submissions only. People might even give a crack at guessing the sex or identity of the author, if they care about that kind of thing. I think they should be encouraged not to care, though I realize that this is not very fashionable.


Several of the casts already do blind subs for the general call for submissions. But it's always easier to sling a stone than check first.

All cat stories start with this statement: “My mother, who was the first cat, told me this...”


trogs

  • Guest
Reply #46 on: March 04, 2016, 08:31:33 PM
I did check, Fenrix. The submit page encourages you to submit on the basis of your "diverse" identity, and the contracts all include fields for name and even have a clause for being able to request your photo, nothing is mentioned about blind submission there. And nothing in the "about", or anywhere in the forum that I could see, or in any episode that I've ever heard (and I've been listening pretty regularly for 5 years) says that you can be published blind. Also, almost all of the published stories have names and photos attached.

Not saying that it isn't out there somewhere. But, I did check. And I think it was pretty clear from Unblinking's description that his method is not universally adopted by everyone.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 08:37:45 PM by trogs »



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #47 on: March 04, 2016, 08:34:29 PM
As Unblinking says, it also removes the name/fame bias of the reviewer, neutralizes affirmative action stigma, does not encourage "opinion nullification" / general political behaviour, and will also help to remove ethnic bias. Just quality.


trogs, could you kindly not put words in my mouth?  I said some, but not all of those things.  If you want to make these statements yourself, that's your choice, but don't claim that I made statements that I didn't.  You can insert your own foot in your own mouth if you like, but I don't care for the flavor.

1.  "Removing name/fame bias is a definite plus.  "

This I definitely said, and I believe it to be true.

2.  "neutralizes affirmative action stigma"

I certainly never said "affirmative action". It is one of those phrases that, while I understand what it means, makes me immediately question the motivations of the person saying it because it is so often used in specious arguments.  

I like the goal they are trying for, which I see as: "Let's change the publishing environment so that women have the same publishing chances as men."  I applaud this goal.  Women have not had as much chance, and it's not because women can't write.  Limited-demographic slushpiles are not my favorite thing, but I think they have some positive effect of reaching the aforementioned goal.  

I haven't heard much of a stigma on the strategy at any publication that's tried it, apart from a very vocal minority.  Look at the fundraising results of Lightspeed's Women Destroy Science Fiction and tell me that there's not a readership interested in seeing this shift happen.  I guess one could claim that the success of such fundraisers is due to the organizing of a secret cabal in the same way that the sad puppies claimed that the Hugos were being rigged against them before they became the heroes of their own story by actually rigging the voting themselves.  But the evidence would have to be pretty convincing, and I've seen not a whiff of that evidence.

IF Artemis Rising stories were of a low quality, then perhaps I could say that the month has done the publication a disservice.  IF.  But, as far as I'm concerned, they have been of an overall very good quality, maybe even a tick above EP's average.  I have no complaints.  You do.  That's fine. Fiction is art.  Art is subjective.  If you really dislike the stories, let's talk about why, but at this point all I've heard is opposition to the concept of the month, not about the stories themselves. If it really is about story quality, then let's talk about the stories.

3.  "does not encourage "opinion nullification" / general political behaviour"

I'm going to be honest, I have no idea what you're referring to here.  

What is opinion nullification?  
--Are you saying that your opinion is somehow being suppressed here?  As far as I know, no posts have been deleted, you have been free to say what you think, and you have said what you think.  Both fans and staff members have responded to tell you what they think.  But, as Matweller said, the fact is, the publication's decisions for editorial direction are in the hands of the staff, and all evidence points to there being mostly support for Artemis Rising, with a vocal minority opposing.
--Are you saying that moderating the Artemis Rising criticisms into their own thread is bad?  That's good just for thread drift purposes. The main story thread should be about the stories, and this discussion has not been.  I salute the moderators in keeping threads separate as much as possible.

What is general political behavior?
--Do you honestly think that your contributions here have been not-political?  IMO, the only political parts of Artemis Rising have been complaints about its concept.  Everyone else has been talking about the stories.  Let's talk about the stories, shall we?

4.  "will also help to remove ethnic bias."

Sure.  But, there is a historical ethnic bias that, again, is worth pushing back against.  Unless one wants to claim that the only writing worth reading is written by white dudes.


If not everyone at Escape Pod already does as Unblinking does, maybe you should experiment with a Snowblind Winter, of blind submissions only.

I have already said that ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  It's right in Escape Pod's guidelines. A big deal hasn't been made about it on the show, but ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  You're preaching to the choir on this point, at least.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 08:37:27 PM by Unblinking »



Fenrix

  • Curmudgeonly Co-Editor of PseudoPod
  • Editor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3996
  • I always lock the door when I creep by daylight.
Reply #48 on: March 04, 2016, 08:39:48 PM

If not everyone at Escape Pod already does as Unblinking does, maybe you should experiment with a Snowblind Winter, of blind submissions only.

I have already said that ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  It's right in Escape Pod's guidelines. A big deal hasn't been made about it on the show, but ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  You're preaching to the choir on this point, at least.


Cast of Wonders, too.

All cat stories start with this statement: “My mother, who was the first cat, told me this...”


Fenrix

  • Curmudgeonly Co-Editor of PseudoPod
  • Editor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3996
  • I always lock the door when I creep by daylight.
Reply #49 on: March 04, 2016, 08:41:23 PM
I did check, Fenrix. The submit page encourages you to submit on the basis of your "diverse" identity, and the contracts all include fields for name and even have a clause for being able to request your photo, nothing is mentioned about blind submission there. And nothing in the "about", or anywhere in the forum that I could see, or in any episode that I've ever heard (and I've been listening pretty regularly for 5 years) says that you can be published blind. Also, almost all of the published stories have names and photos attached.

Not saying that it isn't out there somewhere. But, I did check. And I think it was pretty clear from Unblinking's description that his method is not universally adopted by everyone.

Blind submissions =/= blind publication.

All cat stories start with this statement: “My mother, who was the first cat, told me this...”


Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #50 on: March 04, 2016, 08:41:51 PM

If not everyone at Escape Pod already does as Unblinking does, maybe you should experiment with a Snowblind Winter, of blind submissions only.

I have already said that ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  It's right in Escape Pod's guidelines. A big deal hasn't been made about it on the show, but ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  You're preaching to the choir on this point, at least.


Cast of Wonders, too.

True.  I only focused on Escape Pod, because trogs was specifically saying that Escape Pod should do this thing that Escape Pod is already doing.  



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #51 on: March 04, 2016, 08:44:25 PM
I did check, Fenrix. The submit page encourages you to submit on the basis of your "diverse" identity, and the contracts all include fields for name and even have a clause for being able to request your photo, nothing is mentioned about blind submission there. And nothing in the "about", or anywhere in the forum that I could see, or in any episode that I've ever heard (and I've been listening pretty regularly for 5 years) says that you can be published blind. Also, almost all of the published stories have names and photos attached.

Not saying that it isn't out there somewhere. But, I did check. And I think it was pretty clear from Unblinking's description that his method is not universally adopted by everyone.

Blind submissions =/= blind publication.

Ditto.  Blind publication would be weird and not a very good business model. 

"This week we have a story written for you by someone!  We're not going to tell you who.  They have written things before.  Or maybe they haven't.  Maybe they're six years old.  We're not telling.  It's a secret.  Sssshhhh!"

How would one build a writing career if no one knows who wrote what? 



Devoted135

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1252
Reply #52 on: March 04, 2016, 08:48:40 PM
Down with themed months! While we're at it, I protest the HP Lovecraft month that the Drabblecast has been running for years! And the Edgar Allen Poe month the Journey Into podcast runs! And did you hear about the Dunesteef's last short story contest? They dictated the length, and even three of the words the authors had to use in order to even submit! Those monsters...



trogs

  • Guest
Reply #53 on: March 04, 2016, 10:03:58 PM
I certainly never said "affirmative action". It is one of those phrases that, while I understand what it means, makes me immediately question the motivations of the person saying it because it is so often used in specious arguments.
I think you mean to say that I'm right-wing. We can use "positive discrimination", if you prefer.

I said some, but not all of those things.  If you want to make these statements yourself, that's your choice, but don't claim that I made statements that I didn't.

I figured that this was apparent from my quoteblock of your post, right above my own post.


3.  "does not encourage "opinion nullification" / general political behaviour"

I'm going to be honest, I have no idea what you're referring to here.

What is opinion nullification?  

--Are you saying that your opinion is somehow being suppressed here?
No, it's a curious phrase from a previous poster. It's not aimed at Escape Artists in general. No, I don't, you guys are being fair.


What is general political behavior?
--Do you honestly think that your contributions here have been not-political?  IMO, the only political parts of Artemis Rising have been complaints about its concept.  
No I don't. It's an inevitably and inherently political topic.

If your honest opinion is that making a month of positive gender-discrimination is apolitical, and "the only political parts" to this are those who express dissent to this idea, then I don't agree, no. The concept of the month is inherently political.

Blind submissions are also political. Groups which some people would call "right-wing" or "libertarian" often advocate for it, in fx. university admissions and job interviews.

Nonetheless, I would argue that blind, meritocratic submissions are inherently more politically neutral than identity or group discrimination, one way or the other. "Blind" and "Fair" are synonyms for a reason. Bias, like discrimination, literally means the opposite.



I have already said that ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  It's right in Escape Pod's guidelines. A big deal hasn't been made about it on the show, but ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  You're preaching to the choir on this point, at least.

That's great. I misread your "My own slushpile" phrasing to imply that there are other Escape Artist reviewers who are not reviewing blind. If that is not the case, mea culpa.

May I ask:

  I don't have solid numbers about the demographics of the submitters, but of the stories accepted 14 of the 25 were written by women with the name of the author not being a factor in the actual choices.

If the current default of blind submission results in such a high female:male ratio, at what point is discrimination no longer necessary?



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #54 on: March 04, 2016, 10:26:21 PM


I have already said that ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  It's right in Escape Pod's guidelines. A big deal hasn't been made about it on the show, but ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  You're preaching to the choir on this point, at least.

That's great. I misread your "My own slushpile" phrasing to imply that there are other Escape Artist reviewers who are not reviewing blind. If that is not the case, mea culpa.

Just to clarify, Unblinking runs Diabolical Plots, which is a short fiction market unaffiliated with Escape Artists. He does not review for any of the EA podcasts.

Quote
May I ask:

 I don't have solid numbers about the demographics of the submitters, but of the stories accepted 14 of the 25 were written by women with the name of the author not being a factor in the actual choices.

If the current default of blind submission results in such a high female:male ratio, at what point is discrimination no longer necessary?

Well, among other things, when the following is true:

1. When having 56% female authors won't be considered abnormally high (it's slightly higher than the female:male ratio in society, but well within the expected variance found in a relatively small sample).
2. When there will be fewer people who don't understand the difference between a themed month highlighting a segment of the population and discrimination.
3. When there will no longer be implicit biases that make methods such as blind submission necessary to achieve equal representation.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 10:28:03 PM by eytanz »



shanehalbach

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 189
  • Clockwork Lasercorn
    • shanehalbach.com
Reply #55 on: March 04, 2016, 10:33:49 PM
Eytanz did not receive enough credit for this genius analogy, a situation I aim to rectify:

Quote
But because of a miscommunication, the team rowed too strongly to the right, and now the kayak is pointing the wrong way. Lionman's criticism is like saying is like saying "I don't like that you're facing the wrong way. But you can't correct it by rowing on the left side, because that is just as unequal as the rowing that got you in trouble in the first place. Rather, you must row straight". But if you're already pointing in the wrong direction, rowing straight isn't going to get you where you want.


Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #56 on: March 04, 2016, 11:05:16 PM
I certainly never said "affirmative action". It is one of those phrases that, while I understand what it means, makes me immediately question the motivations of the person saying it because it is so often used in specious arguments.

I think you mean to say that I'm right-wing. We can use "positive discrimination", if you prefer.


There's that foot taste again.  I don't need you to tell me what I mean.  Especially since you have consistently failed to do so with any accuracy.

What I mean to say is that certain phrases are almost entirely used when making specious arguments.  If you want to attribute specious arguments with right-wing, that's your statement, not mine.

Quote
Just to clarify, Unblinking runs Diabolical Plots, which is a short fiction market unaffiliated with Escape Artists. He does not review for any of the EA podcasts.

What eytanz said.  I am not a staff member of any kind of any of the EA casts.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 11:06:55 PM by Unblinking »



trogs

  • Guest
Reply #57 on: March 05, 2016, 12:06:26 AM
Quote from: Eytanz
But because of a miscommunication, the team rowed too strongly to the right, and now the kayak is pointing the wrong way. Lionman's criticism is like saying is like saying "I don't like that you're facing the wrong way. But you can't correct it by rowing on the left side, because that is just as unequal as the rowing that got you in trouble in the first place. Rather, you must row straight". But if you're already pointing in the wrong direction, rowing straight isn't going to get you where you want.
I see. To Eytanz, "no males for a month" isn't discrimination. It is a... restraining of a too strong right-paddle.

Correcting a course leftwards.

And when is the course corrected enough? When "there will no longer be implicit biases" among... the EA staff.

So, let's make this clear: when are blind submissions the way to go?
When blind submissions stop being the only way to get perfectly fair and unobjectionably even results. That's when.

It will be a long rise, Artemis. But you'll catch Zeno's turtle someday. Maybe when The Things gets accepted by the EA staff as often as my nice glowing cat who hates my stupid mom.




What I mean to say is that certain phrases are almost entirely used when making specious arguments.  If you want to attribute specious arguments with right-wing, that's your statement, not mine.
I don't think you understand.

I said "Affirmative Action". Obviously, right-wing people use that phrase. Like left-wing people say "problematic" and "triggering". You assert that "specious arguments" are made by bad people who use that phase (which I just used, lol...). Your assertion is not very clever, just a passive-aggressive way to call me out on being a bad, rightwing kind of guy.

Regardless, you complained about the phrase "affirmative action", so I changed it to "positive discrimination" to trigger you less. I'm charming like that.



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #58 on: March 05, 2016, 12:27:46 AM
You assert that "specious arguments" are made by bad people who use that phase (which I just used, lol...).

I said "Affirmative Action". Obviously, right-wing people use that phrase. Like left-wing people say "problematic" and "triggering". You assert that "specious arguments" are made by bad people who use that phase (which I just used, lol...). Your assertion is not very clever, just a passive-aggressive way to call me out on being a bad, rightwing kind of guy.


I didn't say bad people, I didn't say right-wing, I didn't say I was triggered. 

Keep your own words to your own mouth.  Do I seriously have to say that in every post?  If you're going to pretend I'm saying things so that you can argue with them, why am I wasting my time here?

« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 12:29:43 AM by Unblinking »



shanehalbach

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 189
  • Clockwork Lasercorn
    • shanehalbach.com
Reply #59 on: March 05, 2016, 02:53:50 AM
Quote
Why am I wasting my time here?

Why are you wasting your time here?  :)

trogs, it's pretty clear that you're unhappy with the way we do things around here, and it's pretty clear that you're not open to being *convinced* of our way of doing things. Sorry to hear that, but there's a mighty simple solution that would probably be best for everybody at this point: don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

To the rest of you, seriously folks, don't feed the trolls. It's like you've never even been on the Internet.  :P



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #60 on: March 05, 2016, 08:10:29 AM
Ok, switching roles from posting as myself to moderating:

Please let's keep the tone civil, everyone.

Shane - Please don't refer to other posters as trolls, even if you are genuinely frustrated at their posts.

Trogs - Please stop escalating your discourse. Your opinions were given a platform, and they were heard. Practically everyone here disagrees with them, whether they are EP staff or audience. You're not going to convince anyone, and you are not going to be convinced by anyone. That's fine, that's how disagreement sometimes goes. But you seem to be getting frustrated that no one acknowledges the validity of your arguments, and are starting to read things into people's posts that aren't there, and getting more personal in your own words. That's not acceptable here. Keep arguing, if you wish, though I'm not sure what you'll achieve by that. But keep the hyperbole down.



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #61 on: March 05, 2016, 08:30:57 AM
And back to posting as me:

I see. To Eytanz, "no males for a month" isn't discrimination. It is a... restraining of a too strong right-paddle.

Correcting a course leftwards.

So far, that's a pretty accurate description of my view.

Quote

And when is the course corrected enough? When "there will no longer be implicit biases" among... the EA staff.

But here's where you start deviating, because in my original post I made it clear I was referring to the publishing world as a whole, not just EA staff.

Quote
So, let's make this clear: when are blind submissions the way to go?
When blind submissions stop being the only way to get perfectly fair and unobjectionably even results. That's when.

Here you are putting words into my mouth that in no way resemble anything I said.

Quote
It will be a long rise, Artemis. But you'll catch Zeno's turtle someday. Maybe when The Things gets accepted by the EA staff as often as my nice glowing cat who hates my stupid mom.

I'm really confused here by your metaphor.



Not-a-Robot

  • Guest
Reply #62 on: March 05, 2016, 08:50:13 AM
Quote
It will be a long rise, Artemis. But you'll catch Zeno's turtle someday. Maybe when The Things gets accepted by the EA staff as often as my nice glowing cat who hates my stupid mom.

I'm really confused here by your metaphor.
[/quote]

And maybe Clarkesworld will turn into the New Yorker and Updike will write a space opera: Fly Rabbit Fly. And Heinlein will finally get that Nobel Prize for literature.

Wait what are we talking about? Your tastes in fiction? The story you felt inferior? The kind of fiction you feel inferior?

Oh yeah we were wasting our breath talking about things that won't happen after Artmis Rising is already over.  

Sheesh.  
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 02:33:45 PM by Not-a-Robot »



trogs

  • Guest
Reply #63 on: March 05, 2016, 01:23:39 PM
Ok, switching roles from posting as myself to moderating:

Please let's keep the tone civil, everyone.

Shane - Please don't refer to other posters as trolls, even if you are genuinely frustrated at their posts.

Trogs - Please stop escalating your discourse. Your opinions were given a platform, and they were heard. Practically everyone here disagrees with them, whether they are EP staff or audience. You're not going to convince anyone, and you are not going to be convinced by anyone. That's fine, that's how disagreement sometimes goes. But you seem to be getting frustrated that no one acknowledges the validity of your arguments, and are starting to read things into people's posts that aren't there, and getting more personal in your own words. That's not acceptable here. Keep arguing, if you wish, though I'm not sure what you'll achieve by that. But keep the hyperbole down.
Very evenhanded, eytanz. I guess the other posters have not been escalative, prior to my reply-in-kind. And it is true that my language makes people immediately question my motivations and call my arguments specious. I think I'll take the sock offered by screech and not let the door hit me where the good lord split me.



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #64 on: March 05, 2016, 04:27:43 PM
Moderator's note: In case anyone was wondering, neither I nor any of the other moderators deleted trogs's account, nor did we have any plans to do so. He deleted his own account, entirely of his own accord.



Thunderscreech

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 350
Reply #65 on: March 05, 2016, 05:39:32 PM
It must be terribly frustrating to show up with a torch or pitchfork and find out that the 'mob' is just an even-headed group of science fiction enthusiasts who don't see themselves as victims.  I mean, you've made plans, you've prepared by going to the pitchfork and torch store, you've cleared your schedule for 'mobbery' but then....  nothing, and there you are surrounded by people who aren't interesting in being a mob at all.



nospammers

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Reply #66 on: March 07, 2016, 01:09:09 PM
The idea that we need a special showcase like Artemis Rising rubs my fur the wrong way.  I just want good writing, and if it's from a woman, great.  If it's from non-binary, great. If it's from a man, that's just fine too.  Please, just on with the good stories!

I agree with this, and I reacted badly to the insinuation (at the end of In Their Image) that everyone who has problems with the premise must be anti-women and stuck in the mud. I'm so pro-women that I think it's sad that you seem to be saying, "We have to stop bringing you the best stories and have a female-only time to get you their stories."

If you want to make it a non-traditional-only podcast, that would be great. But if your intention is to deliver the best stories--and/or to advance the female/non-binary cause--wouldn't you accomplish more by making it clear in every issue that one of the stories just happened to be by a white male, one just happened to be from a black female, one was from someone who hadn't decided ner identity, but they all were the best available that month?



nospammers

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Reply #67 on: March 07, 2016, 01:17:31 PM
In the meantime, let's also remember what rednecky Christians struggle with so much...

...And highlighting female and non-binary authors four times will not shrink anybody's penis. I promise.

And with just two sentences you demonstrated a level of bias, intolerance, and nastiness that discredits all your valuable comments. Folks, there are enough places on the internet for trolls to spew their vitriol. I'd like to think that followers of Escape Pod are a bit more open to the ideas of others, whether they agree with them or not.



matweller

  • EA Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
Reply #68 on: March 07, 2016, 01:47:24 PM
In the meantime, let's also remember what rednecky Christians struggle with so much...

...And highlighting female and non-binary authors four times will not shrink anybody's penis. I promise.

And with just two sentences you demonstrated a level of bias, intolerance, and nastiness that discredits all your valuable comments. Folks, there are enough places on the internet for trolls to spew their vitriol. I'd like to think that followers of Escape Pod are a bit more open to the ideas of others, whether they agree with them or not.
In context, I stand by it 100%.

Also, to clarify, I'm a Christian. I fall short of the ideal every day, but I try. One of the ways I fall short is that I have very little patience for my brethren who claim to care about a theology centered around charity and raising up others, but who in practice get whiny every time somebody who is not them gets recognition. We all need to do better.



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #69 on: March 07, 2016, 01:48:05 PM
The idea that we need a special showcase like Artemis Rising rubs my fur the wrong way.  I just want good writing, and if it's from a woman, great.  If it's from non-binary, great. If it's from a man, that's just fine too.  Please, just on with the good stories!

I agree with this, and I reacted badly to the insinuation (at the end of In Their Image) that everyone who has problems with the premise must be anti-women and stuck in the mud.

I'm pretty sure no one insinuated this.

Quote
I'm so pro-women that I think it's sad that you seem to be saying, "We have to stop bringing you the best stories and have a female-only time to get you their stories."

As pointed out earlier in the thread by several people, this is not the philosophy behind Artemis Rising. No one wants to stop bringing the best stories. What EA is saying is "there are more stories we want to publish than we can publish, so let's focus on those of the best stories that are by women and non-binary authors for a while". I can assure you that the acceptance criteria for stories has not been lowered one iota during the event.

Quote
If you want to make it a non-traditional-only podcast, that would be great. But if your intention is to deliver the best stories--and/or to advance the female/non-binary cause--wouldn't you accomplish more by making it clear in every issue that one of the stories just happened to be by a white male, one just happened to be from a black female, one was from someone who hadn't decided ner identity, but they all were the best available that month?

Your conceptualisation of the publishing process is weird; it implies that each month, EA must select 4-5 stories and pass on the rest. That's not how it works - stories are accepted as they come in, and published when they are produced and the schedule allows. If there are ten great stories submitted in April, EA doesn't have to pass on six, they'll just be published later. In other words, if someone who is male wrote a story during the Artemis Rising call and really wanted to get it in, they didn't miss out on the chance. They can submit it afterwards, and the end result would be identical.

If EA had decided to permanently change their submission guidelines, then your criticism here would be meaningful. But right now you seem to be equating a temporary close in submission period by some authors to rejection of stories by same authors, which is not true.



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #70 on: March 07, 2016, 01:53:47 PM
Moderator note:

nospammers -

Mat Weller and his responses to this thread are not the topic here. If anyone has a problem with the wording/tone other poster's commentary (as opposed to their content), please let me know by PM, don't post about it here (if you have a problem with my posts and are worried about a conflict of interest, please feel free to contact one of the other moderators or the editors).

Mat - similarly, this is not the place to defend what you wrote.

Let's all keep this discussion about the editorial decisions of Escape Artists, and not become a meta-discussion on how other posters - be they EA staff or not - choose to post about them.



nospammers

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Reply #71 on: March 07, 2016, 02:26:13 PM
The idea that we need a special showcase like Artemis Rising rubs my fur the wrong way.  I just want good writing, and if it's from a woman, great.  If it's from non-binary, great. If it's from a man, that's just fine too.  Please, just on with the good stories!

I agree with this, and I reacted badly to the insinuation (at the end of In Their Image) that everyone who has problems with the premise must be anti-women and stuck in the mud.

I'm pretty sure no one insinuated this.

Actually, that's exactly the metaphor Mur used at the end of In Their Image. Braying donkeys with four feet stuck in the mud, refusing to move a step.

Quote
If you want to make it a non-traditional-only podcast, that would be great. But if your intention is to deliver the best stories--and/or to advance the female/non-binary cause--wouldn't you accomplish more by making it clear in every issue that one of the stories just happened to be by a white male, one just happened to be from a black female, one was from someone who hadn't decided ner identity, but they all were the best available that month?

Your conceptualisation of the publishing process is weird; it implies that each month, EA must select 4-5 stories and pass on the rest. That's not how it works - stories are accepted as they come in, and published when they are produced and the schedule allows. If there are ten great stories submitted in April, EA doesn't have to pass on six, they'll just be published later. In other words, if someone who is male wrote a story during the Artemis Rising call and really wanted to get it in, they didn't miss out on the chance. They can submit it afterwards, and the end result would be identical.

If EA had decided to permanently change their submission guidelines, then your criticism here would be meaningful. But right now you seem to be equating a temporary close in submission period by some authors to rejection of stories by same authors, which is not true.

That's good to hear, and I appreciate that clarification.



Father Beast

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 517
Reply #72 on: April 26, 2016, 10:55:22 PM
Let's see...

Woman Author
Woman Narrator
Woman Hosting the podcast

Yup, it's an Artemis Rising show!

As for the story, I'm afraid that it just didn't grab me. I kept waiting for it to get interesting, and I had some hope of interest when they were starting to talk about underspace/subspace, but failed to describe it enough for my interest to take hold.

In the end, all that I'm left with is: crippled girl has a perfect brother, who got lost in an experiment, and she thinks that by repeating the experiment, she can save him.

Oh, well.



matweller

  • EA Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
Reply #73 on: April 28, 2016, 02:06:47 PM
Let's see...

Woman Author
Woman Narrator
Woman Hosting the podcast

Yup, it's an Artemis Rising show!

Good argument for a third Artemis Rising here - clearly, it's still a noteworthy anomaly when the author, narrator and host are all female, so EA must work harder to make sure it's just as normal as the episodes where there's a male author, narrator and host.

Let us not indulge the trolls. I'd have to check, but I'd wager a week's pay that we've had that trifecta many times before when Mur was the editor--if not every time there was a female MC in the story--but people only got butthurt about it when we started putting four together once per year and calling it an event.

Okay, now I'm curious, let's look...
  • Mur was the editor for about 136 episodes.
  • About 50 of those were by female authors.
  • About 10 of those were narrated by men or were flash episodes with at least one male narrator in them.
  • That leaves us with about 40 episodes that were most likely female author, narrator and host, and 9 times that happened 2 or more weeks in a row.

It could have happened, but I don't remember one time those episodes rendered a negative comment about the episode gender. So, are we to assume female writing has taken such a nosedive since then that the uptick in negative comments is righteously due to quality concerns, or do the bigots just really get in a bunch when you put a name on it? I leave the interpretation to you.



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #74 on: April 28, 2016, 02:31:13 PM
How many times it actually happened is immaterial - what matters is whether or not people think it's worth pointing out.

In any case, this is not a discussion that belongs in this thread - if people want to continue, I'll move it to the Artemis Rising discussion thread. Otherwise, let's keep this thread about this story, please.



Father Beast

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 517
Reply #75 on: April 29, 2016, 11:52:08 AM


Let us not indulge the trolls. I'd have to check, but I'd wager a week's pay that we've had that trifecta many times before when Mur was the editor--if not every time there was a female MC in the story--but people only got butthurt about it when we started putting four together once per year and calling it an event.



Exactly!

When there is a "Something History Month", some people inevitably ask, "When Is European history month?" To which, it is responded, "the rest of the year".

At Escape Artists, there has never been a practice of exclusiving out a particular gender. We have always enjoyed a variety of authors, hosts and narrators. Well, except for the Artemis rising event, I suppose.

So when people ask, "When is the next Artemis Rising event?", you can answer, "Pretty Often, in fact we had a story this week which fits."



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #76 on: April 29, 2016, 04:45:23 PM
Woman Author
Woman Narrator
Woman Hosting the podcast

Yup, it's an Artemis Rising show!

I wonder how many episodes of various shows have all men author, narrator, host.  And how often those episodes are singled out for it.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 04:47:55 PM by Unblinking »



Not-a-Robot

  • Guest
Reply #77 on: April 29, 2016, 06:30:00 PM
Every year there are 1.3-4.3 million and up to 142,000 deaths from cholera (WHO). CHOLERA!! Talk about preventable disease.

There are over 1.5 million Syrian civil war refugees residing in Lebanon. A country with the population of only 5 million (that's almost ⅓ of the population think about it. It would be like an inflix of 100 million refugees in the US over 2 years)

When these people risk everything (how many have drown?) and travel through Turkey and over mediterranian to Greece, they are sent back to Turkey.

And you are complaining about the injustice of a FREE podcast that exclude males to highlight female authors on 1/12th of thier episodes? Really? I mean, really? Who cares. 1/12th is a fraction so small, that in order to demonstrate it to you on my digits, I need to take off a shoe.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 07:00:53 PM by Not-a-Robot »



Thunderscreech

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 350
Reply #78 on: April 30, 2016, 12:40:15 AM
I've pasted this excellent quote before and I'll paste it again:

Quote
When You’re Accustomed to Privilege, Equality Feels Like Oppression.

Some of the posts here, especially the 'call-out' that brings us here today...  dang.  The above really nails it, it's the only explanation I can think of for why more women in Science Fiction is so upsetting to some folks.



Father Beast

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 517
Reply #79 on: April 30, 2016, 12:35:36 PM


Let us not indulge the trolls. I'd have to check, but I'd wager a week's pay that we've had that trifecta many times before when Mur was the editor--if not every time there was a female MC in the story--but people only got butthurt about it when we started putting four together once per year and calling it an event.


I wonder if people would also get butthurt if there was an event with all male author, narrator, and host. Come to think of it, I wonder how often that happens. I know it happened a lot at the beginning when Steve hosted almost all the shows and narrated almost all the shows. But say since Mur became editor?

Not that it matters, I personally don't pay attention to that sort of thing. Except when people make an issue of it.



Thunderscreech

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 350
Reply #80 on: April 30, 2016, 02:34:44 PM
Not that it matters, I personally don't pay attention to that sort of thing. Except when people make an issue of it.
Respectfully, I don't understand this; aren't you the one making the issue of it?



danooli

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1745
    • Who Doesn't Love Stories?
Reply #81 on: May 02, 2016, 01:16:45 PM
Is it coincidence that this topic was resurrected the week that the Hugo finalists are announced?



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #82 on: May 02, 2016, 04:05:07 PM
Not that it matters, I personally don't pay attention to that sort of thing. Except when people make an issue of it.
Respectfully, I don't understand this; aren't you the one making the issue of it?

Also confused here. It seemed that you pointed something out, and then said that the something you pointed out is something you would never notice.  Maybe I'm grossly misunderstanding what you were trying to say?




Thunderscreech

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 350
Reply #83 on: May 02, 2016, 05:32:47 PM
Also confused here. It seemed that you pointed something out, and then said that the something you pointed out is something you would never notice.  Maybe I'm grossly misunderstanding what you were trying to say?
Clarifying, the 'you' here is Father Beast, not me via the post you're most recently quoting, right?  :)



Fenrix

  • Curmudgeonly Co-Editor of PseudoPod
  • Editor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3996
  • I always lock the door when I creep by daylight.
Reply #84 on: May 02, 2016, 07:12:09 PM
Also confused here. It seemed that you pointed something out, and then said that the something you pointed out is something you would never notice.  Maybe I'm grossly misunderstanding what you were trying to say?
Clarifying, the 'you' here is Father Beast, not me via the post you're most recently quoting, right?  :)

You mind if we just call you Bruce in order to keep things clear?

All cat stories start with this statement: “My mother, who was the first cat, told me this...”


Thunderscreech

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 350
Reply #85 on: May 02, 2016, 10:00:59 PM
Also confused here. It seemed that you pointed something out, and then said that the something you pointed out is something you would never notice.  Maybe I'm grossly misunderstanding what you were trying to say?
Clarifying, the 'you' here is Father Beast, not me via the post you're most recently quoting, right?  :)

You mind if we just call you Bruce in order to keep things clear?
G'day, Bruce!



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #86 on: May 03, 2016, 01:43:32 PM
Also confused here. It seemed that you pointed something out, and then said that the something you pointed out is something you would never notice.  Maybe I'm grossly misunderstanding what you were trying to say?
Clarifying, the 'you' here is Father Beast, not me via the post you're most recently quoting, right?  :)

Haha, yes, sorry.  The "Also confused here" was voicing agreement with the "you" that is Thunderscreech, but the "It seemed that you pointed something out" was voicing confusion regarding the "you" that is Father Beast.  

Looking at my last post, it would have been difficult to be more confusing in so few characters.


ETA:  Since I was talking about being confused, it was all just performance art in order to better demonstrate exactly how confused I was!  Yeah, that's totally it.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 01:51:36 PM by Unblinking »