Author Topic: Artemis Rising Discussion  (Read 29258 times)

Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #50 on: March 04, 2016, 08:41:51 PM

If not everyone at Escape Pod already does as Unblinking does, maybe you should experiment with a Snowblind Winter, of blind submissions only.

I have already said that ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  It's right in Escape Pod's guidelines. A big deal hasn't been made about it on the show, but ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  You're preaching to the choir on this point, at least.


Cast of Wonders, too.

True.  I only focused on Escape Pod, because trogs was specifically saying that Escape Pod should do this thing that Escape Pod is already doing.  



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #51 on: March 04, 2016, 08:44:25 PM
I did check, Fenrix. The submit page encourages you to submit on the basis of your "diverse" identity, and the contracts all include fields for name and even have a clause for being able to request your photo, nothing is mentioned about blind submission there. And nothing in the "about", or anywhere in the forum that I could see, or in any episode that I've ever heard (and I've been listening pretty regularly for 5 years) says that you can be published blind. Also, almost all of the published stories have names and photos attached.

Not saying that it isn't out there somewhere. But, I did check. And I think it was pretty clear from Unblinking's description that his method is not universally adopted by everyone.

Blind submissions =/= blind publication.

Ditto.  Blind publication would be weird and not a very good business model. 

"This week we have a story written for you by someone!  We're not going to tell you who.  They have written things before.  Or maybe they haven't.  Maybe they're six years old.  We're not telling.  It's a secret.  Sssshhhh!"

How would one build a writing career if no one knows who wrote what? 



Devoted135

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1252
Reply #52 on: March 04, 2016, 08:48:40 PM
Down with themed months! While we're at it, I protest the HP Lovecraft month that the Drabblecast has been running for years! And the Edgar Allen Poe month the Journey Into podcast runs! And did you hear about the Dunesteef's last short story contest? They dictated the length, and even three of the words the authors had to use in order to even submit! Those monsters...



trogs

  • Guest
Reply #53 on: March 04, 2016, 10:03:58 PM
I certainly never said "affirmative action". It is one of those phrases that, while I understand what it means, makes me immediately question the motivations of the person saying it because it is so often used in specious arguments.
I think you mean to say that I'm right-wing. We can use "positive discrimination", if you prefer.

I said some, but not all of those things.  If you want to make these statements yourself, that's your choice, but don't claim that I made statements that I didn't.

I figured that this was apparent from my quoteblock of your post, right above my own post.


3.  "does not encourage "opinion nullification" / general political behaviour"

I'm going to be honest, I have no idea what you're referring to here.

What is opinion nullification?  

--Are you saying that your opinion is somehow being suppressed here?
No, it's a curious phrase from a previous poster. It's not aimed at Escape Artists in general. No, I don't, you guys are being fair.


What is general political behavior?
--Do you honestly think that your contributions here have been not-political?  IMO, the only political parts of Artemis Rising have been complaints about its concept.  
No I don't. It's an inevitably and inherently political topic.

If your honest opinion is that making a month of positive gender-discrimination is apolitical, and "the only political parts" to this are those who express dissent to this idea, then I don't agree, no. The concept of the month is inherently political.

Blind submissions are also political. Groups which some people would call "right-wing" or "libertarian" often advocate for it, in fx. university admissions and job interviews.

Nonetheless, I would argue that blind, meritocratic submissions are inherently more politically neutral than identity or group discrimination, one way or the other. "Blind" and "Fair" are synonyms for a reason. Bias, like discrimination, literally means the opposite.



I have already said that ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  It's right in Escape Pod's guidelines. A big deal hasn't been made about it on the show, but ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  You're preaching to the choir on this point, at least.

That's great. I misread your "My own slushpile" phrasing to imply that there are other Escape Artist reviewers who are not reviewing blind. If that is not the case, mea culpa.

May I ask:

  I don't have solid numbers about the demographics of the submitters, but of the stories accepted 14 of the 25 were written by women with the name of the author not being a factor in the actual choices.

If the current default of blind submission results in such a high female:male ratio, at what point is discrimination no longer necessary?



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #54 on: March 04, 2016, 10:26:21 PM


I have already said that ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  It's right in Escape Pod's guidelines. A big deal hasn't been made about it on the show, but ESCAPE POD ALREADY DOES THIS.  You're preaching to the choir on this point, at least.

That's great. I misread your "My own slushpile" phrasing to imply that there are other Escape Artist reviewers who are not reviewing blind. If that is not the case, mea culpa.

Just to clarify, Unblinking runs Diabolical Plots, which is a short fiction market unaffiliated with Escape Artists. He does not review for any of the EA podcasts.

Quote
May I ask:

 I don't have solid numbers about the demographics of the submitters, but of the stories accepted 14 of the 25 were written by women with the name of the author not being a factor in the actual choices.

If the current default of blind submission results in such a high female:male ratio, at what point is discrimination no longer necessary?

Well, among other things, when the following is true:

1. When having 56% female authors won't be considered abnormally high (it's slightly higher than the female:male ratio in society, but well within the expected variance found in a relatively small sample).
2. When there will be fewer people who don't understand the difference between a themed month highlighting a segment of the population and discrimination.
3. When there will no longer be implicit biases that make methods such as blind submission necessary to achieve equal representation.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 10:28:03 PM by eytanz »



shanehalbach

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 189
  • Clockwork Lasercorn
    • shanehalbach.com
Reply #55 on: March 04, 2016, 10:33:49 PM
Eytanz did not receive enough credit for this genius analogy, a situation I aim to rectify:

Quote
But because of a miscommunication, the team rowed too strongly to the right, and now the kayak is pointing the wrong way. Lionman's criticism is like saying is like saying "I don't like that you're facing the wrong way. But you can't correct it by rowing on the left side, because that is just as unequal as the rowing that got you in trouble in the first place. Rather, you must row straight". But if you're already pointing in the wrong direction, rowing straight isn't going to get you where you want.


Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #56 on: March 04, 2016, 11:05:16 PM
I certainly never said "affirmative action". It is one of those phrases that, while I understand what it means, makes me immediately question the motivations of the person saying it because it is so often used in specious arguments.

I think you mean to say that I'm right-wing. We can use "positive discrimination", if you prefer.


There's that foot taste again.  I don't need you to tell me what I mean.  Especially since you have consistently failed to do so with any accuracy.

What I mean to say is that certain phrases are almost entirely used when making specious arguments.  If you want to attribute specious arguments with right-wing, that's your statement, not mine.

Quote
Just to clarify, Unblinking runs Diabolical Plots, which is a short fiction market unaffiliated with Escape Artists. He does not review for any of the EA podcasts.

What eytanz said.  I am not a staff member of any kind of any of the EA casts.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 11:06:55 PM by Unblinking »



trogs

  • Guest
Reply #57 on: March 05, 2016, 12:06:26 AM
Quote from: Eytanz
But because of a miscommunication, the team rowed too strongly to the right, and now the kayak is pointing the wrong way. Lionman's criticism is like saying is like saying "I don't like that you're facing the wrong way. But you can't correct it by rowing on the left side, because that is just as unequal as the rowing that got you in trouble in the first place. Rather, you must row straight". But if you're already pointing in the wrong direction, rowing straight isn't going to get you where you want.
I see. To Eytanz, "no males for a month" isn't discrimination. It is a... restraining of a too strong right-paddle.

Correcting a course leftwards.

And when is the course corrected enough? When "there will no longer be implicit biases" among... the EA staff.

So, let's make this clear: when are blind submissions the way to go?
When blind submissions stop being the only way to get perfectly fair and unobjectionably even results. That's when.

It will be a long rise, Artemis. But you'll catch Zeno's turtle someday. Maybe when The Things gets accepted by the EA staff as often as my nice glowing cat who hates my stupid mom.




What I mean to say is that certain phrases are almost entirely used when making specious arguments.  If you want to attribute specious arguments with right-wing, that's your statement, not mine.
I don't think you understand.

I said "Affirmative Action". Obviously, right-wing people use that phrase. Like left-wing people say "problematic" and "triggering". You assert that "specious arguments" are made by bad people who use that phase (which I just used, lol...). Your assertion is not very clever, just a passive-aggressive way to call me out on being a bad, rightwing kind of guy.

Regardless, you complained about the phrase "affirmative action", so I changed it to "positive discrimination" to trigger you less. I'm charming like that.



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #58 on: March 05, 2016, 12:27:46 AM
You assert that "specious arguments" are made by bad people who use that phase (which I just used, lol...).

I said "Affirmative Action". Obviously, right-wing people use that phrase. Like left-wing people say "problematic" and "triggering". You assert that "specious arguments" are made by bad people who use that phase (which I just used, lol...). Your assertion is not very clever, just a passive-aggressive way to call me out on being a bad, rightwing kind of guy.


I didn't say bad people, I didn't say right-wing, I didn't say I was triggered. 

Keep your own words to your own mouth.  Do I seriously have to say that in every post?  If you're going to pretend I'm saying things so that you can argue with them, why am I wasting my time here?

« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 12:29:43 AM by Unblinking »



shanehalbach

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 189
  • Clockwork Lasercorn
    • shanehalbach.com
Reply #59 on: March 05, 2016, 02:53:50 AM
Quote
Why am I wasting my time here?

Why are you wasting your time here?  :)

trogs, it's pretty clear that you're unhappy with the way we do things around here, and it's pretty clear that you're not open to being *convinced* of our way of doing things. Sorry to hear that, but there's a mighty simple solution that would probably be best for everybody at this point: don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

To the rest of you, seriously folks, don't feed the trolls. It's like you've never even been on the Internet.  :P



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #60 on: March 05, 2016, 08:10:29 AM
Ok, switching roles from posting as myself to moderating:

Please let's keep the tone civil, everyone.

Shane - Please don't refer to other posters as trolls, even if you are genuinely frustrated at their posts.

Trogs - Please stop escalating your discourse. Your opinions were given a platform, and they were heard. Practically everyone here disagrees with them, whether they are EP staff or audience. You're not going to convince anyone, and you are not going to be convinced by anyone. That's fine, that's how disagreement sometimes goes. But you seem to be getting frustrated that no one acknowledges the validity of your arguments, and are starting to read things into people's posts that aren't there, and getting more personal in your own words. That's not acceptable here. Keep arguing, if you wish, though I'm not sure what you'll achieve by that. But keep the hyperbole down.



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #61 on: March 05, 2016, 08:30:57 AM
And back to posting as me:

I see. To Eytanz, "no males for a month" isn't discrimination. It is a... restraining of a too strong right-paddle.

Correcting a course leftwards.

So far, that's a pretty accurate description of my view.

Quote

And when is the course corrected enough? When "there will no longer be implicit biases" among... the EA staff.

But here's where you start deviating, because in my original post I made it clear I was referring to the publishing world as a whole, not just EA staff.

Quote
So, let's make this clear: when are blind submissions the way to go?
When blind submissions stop being the only way to get perfectly fair and unobjectionably even results. That's when.

Here you are putting words into my mouth that in no way resemble anything I said.

Quote
It will be a long rise, Artemis. But you'll catch Zeno's turtle someday. Maybe when The Things gets accepted by the EA staff as often as my nice glowing cat who hates my stupid mom.

I'm really confused here by your metaphor.



Not-a-Robot

  • Guest
Reply #62 on: March 05, 2016, 08:50:13 AM
Quote
It will be a long rise, Artemis. But you'll catch Zeno's turtle someday. Maybe when The Things gets accepted by the EA staff as often as my nice glowing cat who hates my stupid mom.

I'm really confused here by your metaphor.
[/quote]

And maybe Clarkesworld will turn into the New Yorker and Updike will write a space opera: Fly Rabbit Fly. And Heinlein will finally get that Nobel Prize for literature.

Wait what are we talking about? Your tastes in fiction? The story you felt inferior? The kind of fiction you feel inferior?

Oh yeah we were wasting our breath talking about things that won't happen after Artmis Rising is already over.  

Sheesh.  
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 02:33:45 PM by Not-a-Robot »



trogs

  • Guest
Reply #63 on: March 05, 2016, 01:23:39 PM
Ok, switching roles from posting as myself to moderating:

Please let's keep the tone civil, everyone.

Shane - Please don't refer to other posters as trolls, even if you are genuinely frustrated at their posts.

Trogs - Please stop escalating your discourse. Your opinions were given a platform, and they were heard. Practically everyone here disagrees with them, whether they are EP staff or audience. You're not going to convince anyone, and you are not going to be convinced by anyone. That's fine, that's how disagreement sometimes goes. But you seem to be getting frustrated that no one acknowledges the validity of your arguments, and are starting to read things into people's posts that aren't there, and getting more personal in your own words. That's not acceptable here. Keep arguing, if you wish, though I'm not sure what you'll achieve by that. But keep the hyperbole down.
Very evenhanded, eytanz. I guess the other posters have not been escalative, prior to my reply-in-kind. And it is true that my language makes people immediately question my motivations and call my arguments specious. I think I'll take the sock offered by screech and not let the door hit me where the good lord split me.



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #64 on: March 05, 2016, 04:27:43 PM
Moderator's note: In case anyone was wondering, neither I nor any of the other moderators deleted trogs's account, nor did we have any plans to do so. He deleted his own account, entirely of his own accord.



Thunderscreech

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 350
Reply #65 on: March 05, 2016, 05:39:32 PM
It must be terribly frustrating to show up with a torch or pitchfork and find out that the 'mob' is just an even-headed group of science fiction enthusiasts who don't see themselves as victims.  I mean, you've made plans, you've prepared by going to the pitchfork and torch store, you've cleared your schedule for 'mobbery' but then....  nothing, and there you are surrounded by people who aren't interesting in being a mob at all.



nospammers

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Reply #66 on: March 07, 2016, 01:09:09 PM
The idea that we need a special showcase like Artemis Rising rubs my fur the wrong way.  I just want good writing, and if it's from a woman, great.  If it's from non-binary, great. If it's from a man, that's just fine too.  Please, just on with the good stories!

I agree with this, and I reacted badly to the insinuation (at the end of In Their Image) that everyone who has problems with the premise must be anti-women and stuck in the mud. I'm so pro-women that I think it's sad that you seem to be saying, "We have to stop bringing you the best stories and have a female-only time to get you their stories."

If you want to make it a non-traditional-only podcast, that would be great. But if your intention is to deliver the best stories--and/or to advance the female/non-binary cause--wouldn't you accomplish more by making it clear in every issue that one of the stories just happened to be by a white male, one just happened to be from a black female, one was from someone who hadn't decided ner identity, but they all were the best available that month?



nospammers

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Reply #67 on: March 07, 2016, 01:17:31 PM
In the meantime, let's also remember what rednecky Christians struggle with so much...

...And highlighting female and non-binary authors four times will not shrink anybody's penis. I promise.

And with just two sentences you demonstrated a level of bias, intolerance, and nastiness that discredits all your valuable comments. Folks, there are enough places on the internet for trolls to spew their vitriol. I'd like to think that followers of Escape Pod are a bit more open to the ideas of others, whether they agree with them or not.



matweller

  • EA Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
Reply #68 on: March 07, 2016, 01:47:24 PM
In the meantime, let's also remember what rednecky Christians struggle with so much...

...And highlighting female and non-binary authors four times will not shrink anybody's penis. I promise.

And with just two sentences you demonstrated a level of bias, intolerance, and nastiness that discredits all your valuable comments. Folks, there are enough places on the internet for trolls to spew their vitriol. I'd like to think that followers of Escape Pod are a bit more open to the ideas of others, whether they agree with them or not.
In context, I stand by it 100%.

Also, to clarify, I'm a Christian. I fall short of the ideal every day, but I try. One of the ways I fall short is that I have very little patience for my brethren who claim to care about a theology centered around charity and raising up others, but who in practice get whiny every time somebody who is not them gets recognition. We all need to do better.



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #69 on: March 07, 2016, 01:48:05 PM
The idea that we need a special showcase like Artemis Rising rubs my fur the wrong way.  I just want good writing, and if it's from a woman, great.  If it's from non-binary, great. If it's from a man, that's just fine too.  Please, just on with the good stories!

I agree with this, and I reacted badly to the insinuation (at the end of In Their Image) that everyone who has problems with the premise must be anti-women and stuck in the mud.

I'm pretty sure no one insinuated this.

Quote
I'm so pro-women that I think it's sad that you seem to be saying, "We have to stop bringing you the best stories and have a female-only time to get you their stories."

As pointed out earlier in the thread by several people, this is not the philosophy behind Artemis Rising. No one wants to stop bringing the best stories. What EA is saying is "there are more stories we want to publish than we can publish, so let's focus on those of the best stories that are by women and non-binary authors for a while". I can assure you that the acceptance criteria for stories has not been lowered one iota during the event.

Quote
If you want to make it a non-traditional-only podcast, that would be great. But if your intention is to deliver the best stories--and/or to advance the female/non-binary cause--wouldn't you accomplish more by making it clear in every issue that one of the stories just happened to be by a white male, one just happened to be from a black female, one was from someone who hadn't decided ner identity, but they all were the best available that month?

Your conceptualisation of the publishing process is weird; it implies that each month, EA must select 4-5 stories and pass on the rest. That's not how it works - stories are accepted as they come in, and published when they are produced and the schedule allows. If there are ten great stories submitted in April, EA doesn't have to pass on six, they'll just be published later. In other words, if someone who is male wrote a story during the Artemis Rising call and really wanted to get it in, they didn't miss out on the chance. They can submit it afterwards, and the end result would be identical.

If EA had decided to permanently change their submission guidelines, then your criticism here would be meaningful. But right now you seem to be equating a temporary close in submission period by some authors to rejection of stories by same authors, which is not true.



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #70 on: March 07, 2016, 01:53:47 PM
Moderator note:

nospammers -

Mat Weller and his responses to this thread are not the topic here. If anyone has a problem with the wording/tone other poster's commentary (as opposed to their content), please let me know by PM, don't post about it here (if you have a problem with my posts and are worried about a conflict of interest, please feel free to contact one of the other moderators or the editors).

Mat - similarly, this is not the place to defend what you wrote.

Let's all keep this discussion about the editorial decisions of Escape Artists, and not become a meta-discussion on how other posters - be they EA staff or not - choose to post about them.



nospammers

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Reply #71 on: March 07, 2016, 02:26:13 PM
The idea that we need a special showcase like Artemis Rising rubs my fur the wrong way.  I just want good writing, and if it's from a woman, great.  If it's from non-binary, great. If it's from a man, that's just fine too.  Please, just on with the good stories!

I agree with this, and I reacted badly to the insinuation (at the end of In Their Image) that everyone who has problems with the premise must be anti-women and stuck in the mud.

I'm pretty sure no one insinuated this.

Actually, that's exactly the metaphor Mur used at the end of In Their Image. Braying donkeys with four feet stuck in the mud, refusing to move a step.

Quote
If you want to make it a non-traditional-only podcast, that would be great. But if your intention is to deliver the best stories--and/or to advance the female/non-binary cause--wouldn't you accomplish more by making it clear in every issue that one of the stories just happened to be by a white male, one just happened to be from a black female, one was from someone who hadn't decided ner identity, but they all were the best available that month?

Your conceptualisation of the publishing process is weird; it implies that each month, EA must select 4-5 stories and pass on the rest. That's not how it works - stories are accepted as they come in, and published when they are produced and the schedule allows. If there are ten great stories submitted in April, EA doesn't have to pass on six, they'll just be published later. In other words, if someone who is male wrote a story during the Artemis Rising call and really wanted to get it in, they didn't miss out on the chance. They can submit it afterwards, and the end result would be identical.

If EA had decided to permanently change their submission guidelines, then your criticism here would be meaningful. But right now you seem to be equating a temporary close in submission period by some authors to rejection of stories by same authors, which is not true.

That's good to hear, and I appreciate that clarification.



Father Beast

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 517
Reply #72 on: April 26, 2016, 10:55:22 PM
Let's see...

Woman Author
Woman Narrator
Woman Hosting the podcast

Yup, it's an Artemis Rising show!

As for the story, I'm afraid that it just didn't grab me. I kept waiting for it to get interesting, and I had some hope of interest when they were starting to talk about underspace/subspace, but failed to describe it enough for my interest to take hold.

In the end, all that I'm left with is: crippled girl has a perfect brother, who got lost in an experiment, and she thinks that by repeating the experiment, she can save him.

Oh, well.



matweller

  • EA Staff
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
Reply #73 on: April 28, 2016, 02:06:47 PM
Let's see...

Woman Author
Woman Narrator
Woman Hosting the podcast

Yup, it's an Artemis Rising show!

Good argument for a third Artemis Rising here - clearly, it's still a noteworthy anomaly when the author, narrator and host are all female, so EA must work harder to make sure it's just as normal as the episodes where there's a male author, narrator and host.

Let us not indulge the trolls. I'd have to check, but I'd wager a week's pay that we've had that trifecta many times before when Mur was the editor--if not every time there was a female MC in the story--but people only got butthurt about it when we started putting four together once per year and calling it an event.

Okay, now I'm curious, let's look...
  • Mur was the editor for about 136 episodes.
  • About 50 of those were by female authors.
  • About 10 of those were narrated by men or were flash episodes with at least one male narrator in them.
  • That leaves us with about 40 episodes that were most likely female author, narrator and host, and 9 times that happened 2 or more weeks in a row.

It could have happened, but I don't remember one time those episodes rendered a negative comment about the episode gender. So, are we to assume female writing has taken such a nosedive since then that the uptick in negative comments is righteously due to quality concerns, or do the bigots just really get in a bunch when you put a name on it? I leave the interpretation to you.



eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #74 on: April 28, 2016, 02:31:13 PM
How many times it actually happened is immaterial - what matters is whether or not people think it's worth pointing out.

In any case, this is not a discussion that belongs in this thread - if people want to continue, I'll move it to the Artemis Rising discussion thread. Otherwise, let's keep this thread about this story, please.