Harry Potter 7 :: WARNING!!! :: SPOILERS INSIDE!!! ::

[sayeth]

I loved it. I'd put HP7 up in the top 2 or 3 of the series.

Now, it wasn't perfect. The middle chapters, in which Harry et al. just roam around Britain, looking for something to do, were boring and pointless. On the other hand, Rowling could've been imitating the second half of Return of the King, in which Frodo & Sam slowly make their way to Mt. Doom. Of course, making a section of the book specifically so that the reader feels the same drudgery and hopelessness as the characters doesn't make for fun reading, and I wish something more interesting (at least character-wise if not plot-wise) happened in the middle chapters of HP7.

As for who died, I always thought Dobby was a bit annoying, so no loss there. I figured Mad-Eye would die - he's too much of a fighter not to die a heroic death. Apart from that, I was surprised at  Fred's death - I thought the twins would be okay after George's maiming, but was also surprised that more characters didn't go to the Underground station in the sky.

The ending was great. As soon as the Hallows were explained by Mr. Lovegood, I guessed this as the ending: Harry would face Voldemort in the final battle, and both would kill each other. Harry, having the cloak, having the stone open "at the close", and upon V's death, having the wand, would be returned to life by the convergence of the Deathly Hallows after a chapter full of mourning by Ginny, Ron, Hermione, et al.  I was so sure that this was where Rowling was going that the King's Cross chapter, in which Dumbledore explains it all, made me feel like she must have changed the plot in a late revision. Of course, I'm not one to begrudge a plot twist, and the rest of the ending was simply amazing, though I would've thought Draco would have redeemed himself at some point.

I've read complaints online about the epilogue, but I thought this was a perfect way for Rowling to give herself as many options for the future as possible. The ending is final - there's no more that needs to be written about Harry.  But, there's a possibility for more in the stories of Albus, James, Lilly and so forth.  She can write as much or as little as she wants about these characters without ruining Harry's story, without a deadline of people breathlessly waiting out a cliffhanger and without making a even more complex book that stands on the shoulders of the ones before. In essence, Rowling gets a reset on the whole series. Brilliant!

[Listener]

Speaking of Neville's heroics, though, I was a bit confused about his getting the sword out of the Sorting Hat - was that planned, is that why he "threw" himself at Voldemort?

"Only a true Gryffindor could pull that out of the hat."

"Help will always come to those who ask for it."

Neville, by rejecting Voldemort and showing his bravery over the past few books, proved he was a true Gryffindor.  And though we can't see into his head because the books are third-person-limited, who's to say he wasn't asking for help mentally?

[ClintMemo]

Speaking of Neville's heroics, though, I was a bit confused about his getting the sword out of the Sorting Hat - was that planned, is that why he "threw" himself at Voldemort?

That was the way I took it.  Harry told him to kill the snake and the hat gave the sword in book 2, so there was a precedent, so to speak.

[Listener]

The ending was great. As soon as the Hallows were explained by Mr. Lovegood, I guessed this as the ending: Harry would face Voldemort in the final battle, and both would kill each other. Harry, having the cloak, having the stone open "at the close", and upon V's death, having the wand, would be returned to life by the convergence of the Deathly Hallows after a chapter full of mourning by Ginny, Ron, Hermione, et al.  I was so sure that this was where Rowling was going that the King's Cross chapter, in which Dumbledore explains it all, made me feel like she must have changed the plot in a late revision. Of course, I'm not one to begrudge a plot twist, and the rest of the ending was simply amazing, though I would've thought Draco would have redeemed himself at some point.

I felt cheated by Chapter 35 ("Dumbledore Explains It All").  It's like Harry made this sacrifice so that someone else could kill Voldemort, and then the sacrifice was cheapened.  In real life, a person who made a sacrifice like this would not come back to life, and though I know HP books are not reality, I felt she generally has made things believable.  Plus, there was all that stuff in the past books about how no one can come back from the dead, as much as we want them to -- Mirror of Erised, Priori Incantatem, Harry's talk with Nick, and even the truth about the Resurrection Stone.

It did kind of mirror the end of HP1, though -- Harry didn't want to use the Sorcerer's Stone, so he was able to get it out of the mirror, and he didn't want to use the Hallows, so he used them for their "intended" purpose, which was to survive death.

I just... y'know... I wouldn't have been HAPPY had Harry died, but I think the ending would've been loads better if he'd remained a martyr instead of "coming back to life" (because he never really was dead).

I've read complaints online about the epilogue, but I thought this was a perfect way for Rowling to give herself as many options for the future as possible. The ending is final - there's no more that needs to be written about Harry.  But, there's a possibility for more in the stories of Albus, James, Lilly and so forth.  She can write as much or as little as she wants about these characters without ruining Harry's story, without a deadline of people breathlessly waiting out a cliffhanger and without making a even more complex book that stands on the shoulders of the ones before. In essence, Rowling gets a reset on the whole series. Brilliant!

I had no problems with the epilogue either.  I've often espoused the opinion that, after she finished Book 7, she should allow other authors to pick up the franchise while she gets final approval on plots and stories and such, kind of like what Paramount has done with Star Trek.  I could see great stories coming out of HP about the Marauders, the Dumbledore-Grindelwald stories, the rise of Fudge (immediately following the First Voldemort War), other Hogwarts students through the seven years of Potter, and what happened after the Second War.

Since Rowling has openly said she has no problem with fanfic, I know it's a pipe dream, but some fanfic is really amazingly-written.  I'd love to see some of those authors tapped to rewrite their stories to fit in with canon and then sell them as HP books.

[Heradel]

Anyone else see the interview on Countdown (MSNBC) with JK? She said she may do an encyclopedia (I guess something a bit akin to the Silmarion) and said that the first draft the epilogue had a lot more plot details and didn't work. Some of the ones cut were that Harry and Ron apparently revolutionized the Auror department and Hermione became a magical DA. Summary of the details here.

[Bdoomed]

Anyone else see the interview on Countdown (MSNBC) with JK? She said she may do an encyclopedia (I guess something a bit akin to the Silmarion) and said that the first draft the epilogue had a lot more plot details and didn't work. Some of the ones cut were that Harry and Ron apparently revolutionized the Auror department and Hermione became a magical DA. Summary of the details here.

said that on the last page, but thanks for the link!

[Zathras]

So watch out... people are being asshats and ruining it for everyone.

Speaking of Wizard Rock... Enjoy...

* don't laugh... oh, okay, laugh, go ahead

Yeah, some fartknockers were driving by a B & N bookstore in a Minneapolis suburb yelling spoilers out the windows at the Potter fans going in to the store at midnight they day it went on sale.   

[Alasdair5000]

Yeah, when he took that dive off the bike, I totally expected him to bite it.

I didn't expect it until he went after the spiders.  I figured that someone big (no pun intended) would die late.
Although...
I didn't expect Mad-eye to die so early.  I was certain they were going to find him in Malfoy's castle or that he was going to come back as a zombie or something.
Hedwig's death was kind of glossed over, but it was totally necessary for the plot.  Someone would have used it to find Harry.
I was a bit disappointed that Tonks and Lupin died off-screen.  She could have at least had someone tell Harry how they died.

I was glad that Longbottom go to do something heroic.  I was a bit surprised that he didn't get to kill LeStrange but I suppose everyone expected that so maybe that's why she didn't do it.

I did enjoy the epilogue - especially the bit where Draco nodded his head (or tipped his hat whatever). It really gave it that "the past is the past and everyone has gotten over it and moved on" vibe.  Maybe Draco turned out not to be so bad after all. Maybe he just had bad parents.
Of course, it also sets the seed for "Hogwarts: The Next Generation."  I'm sure people are already pestering her about doing that.  Even if she never writes another Hogwarts story, I can't imagine that she would give up writing.

Agree with you on Mad Eye's death but the reveal of exactly what his eye was being used for was pretty much the most horrid thing I've ever read in a book aimed primarily at children:)  Top marks to her for that one.
   As for the Tonks/Lupin deaths off screen I actually rather liked that especially, oddly enough, as they were amongst my favourite supporting characters.  There's some good symmetry with the first war and Harry being orphaned and there's an interesting sense of their story being just as rich, just as varied but just 'to the left' of the established text.

[Russell Nash]

Finally got the chance to finish it.

Overall I give it high marks.

Three points that come to mind right now:

1) I think the real stregnth of the whole series comes from the fact that it was all planned out before the first one was finished being written.  So many epics just continue and continue (Wheel of Time anyone?) because they're making money.  They lose their continuity and feel like the author is just making it up as they go along.

2) Since the story happens from Harry's point of view, it would feel cheap if he witnessed every important death, like Tonks and Lupin.  It would end up being, "oh here comes Lupin and Tonks. I wonder which of them is going to die in front of Harry."

3) Hedwig dying the way she did was a quick way to bring in how serious the situation was.  Rowling was going to let charactors die.  Harry needed to know it and so did we.  After she did that, I spent the whole book going, "Now it's Hagrid's turn.  Oh, wait, now it's Ron's turn."

4) The epilogue felt right to me.  Harry said he didn't want any more trouble.  We get to see that's what he got.  He got to bring up the family he always wanted to be a part of.  He got what he saw in the mirror.  Rowling also put a nail in Harry's story.  There will probably be other stories in this universe, but you don't get to mess with Harry's story.

5) The hallows were needed as a way to get rid of Dumbledore.  There was no need for 95% of HP7 if Dumbledore was still there.  Harry needed to step up.  With Dumbledore around he never would have done it.

OK, that was five, but that's what came to me.

[eytanz]

3) Hedwig dying the way she did was a quick way to bring in how serious the situation was.  Rowling was going to let charactors die.  Harry needed to know it and so did we.  After she did that, I spent the whole book going, "Now it's Hagrid's turn.  Oh, wait, now it's Ron's turn."

I agree with most of the rest of what you said, but I don't totally buy this - I think that after books 4-6, this wasn't really a point that much needed making. Besides, Hedwig's death is followed in quick succession with Moody's death, which on its own would have made the same point.

Not, mind you, that I'm arguing Hedwig should have been spared. I just found her death to be relatively awkwardly handled by Rowling.

[Russell Nash]

3) Hedwig dying the way she did was a quick way to bring in how serious the situation was.  Rowling was going to let charactors die.  Harry needed to know it and so did we.  After she did that, I spent the whole book going, "Now it's Hagrid's turn.  Oh, wait, now it's Ron's turn."

I agree with most of the rest of what you said, but I don't totally buy this - I think that after books 4-6, this wasn't really a point that much needed making. Besides, Hedwig's death is followed in quick succession with Moody's death, which on its own would have made the same point.

Not, mind you, that I'm arguing Hedwig should have been spared. I just found her death to be relatively awkwardly handled by Rowling.

I think Hedwig added suspense in the moment.  I thought Hagrid was a goner when he hit.  It helped make Moody's death off screen more acceptable and added tension to the wait for everyone to get to the Burrow.

[ajames]

Speaking of Neville's heroics, though, I was a bit confused about his getting the sword out of the Sorting Hat - was that planned, is that why he "threw" himself at Voldemort?

"Only a true Gryffindor could pull that out of the hat."

"Help will always come to those who ask for it."

Neville, by rejecting Voldemort and showing his bravery over the past few books, proved he was a true Gryffindor.  And though we can't see into his head because the books are third-person-limited, who's to say he wasn't asking for help mentally?

First off, loved the series and thought JKR did a wonderful job with this last book.  Don't have much to add that hasn't already been said here but at the end this bit about the sword didn't quite sit with me too well.  All that time spent figuring out how to get something to destroy the horcruxes, breaking into the bank, etc., when it could just be pulled out of a hat.  All that discussion about goblins and wizards just sort of pushed aside. [Looks like their could be another novel, "Revenge of the Goblins"].  Yes it can all be explained, just not very satisfactorily to me.

But that is nitpicking, and if that is the only problem I have with a monumental undertaking such as this, then wow!  Just wow!  My hat is off to you, JK, [just not my sorting hat  ].

[DKT]

I took the way Neville pulled Gryffindor's sword from the Sorting Hat to mean that it really was Gryffindor's sword, not the goblin.  They made it and they sold/gave it to Godric Gryffindor and were no longer the rightful owners of it.  And this is kind of proved by what Dumbledore told Harry back in book 2:

Only a true Gryffindor could pull that out of the hat."

"Help will always come to those who ask for it."

(^stolen from Listener)

One things for sure, Griphook must have been pissed off.

[eytanz]

Well, since the sorting hat was enchanted by Griffindor himself, and based on his values. it's more than likely that the goblins would not view it as granting legitimacy to the wizards' ownership of the sword - from the goblin POV, it is probably just a sneaky sword-stealing device.

I liked the goblin subplot - true, it was not resolved, but adding it added a layer of complexity to the morals of the story. Harry's actions, as well as Neville's, are clearly justified by the circumstances - but then again, take that reasoning too far and you get young Dumbledore's "To the greater good", or, for that matter's, older Dumbledore's manipulation of everyone around him for his aims. Te goblin subplot provides another perspective to look at the entire story.

[Russell Nash]

I just saw Neville going, "shit I can't move and there's this heavy metal thing giving me a fricking headache". 

Then the hat says, "Take the sword and do what you need to do."

"Sword?  What sword?"

"The one giving you the headache."

"Oh, that's a sword?"

"Yes, Take it."

"But I can't move."

"That's it. I'm taking my sword and going home."

"Wait, wait, I can move.  Give me the sword."

[DKT]

Well, since the sorting hat was enchanted by Griffindor himself, and based on his values. it's more than likely that the goblins would not view it as granting legitimacy to the wizards' ownership of the sword - from the goblin POV, it is probably just a sneaky sword-stealing device.

I liked the goblin subplot - true, it was not resolved, but adding it added a layer of complexity to the morals of the story. Harry's actions, as well as Neville's, are clearly justified by the circumstances - but then again, take that reasoning too far and you get young Dumbledore's "To the greater good", or, for that matter's, older Dumbledore's manipulation of everyone around him for his aims. Te goblin subplot provides another perspective to look at the entire story.

Yeah, maybe I wasn't clear.  I have no doubts from the goblin POV it seemed like some sneaky sword-stealing device.  I'm just unconvinced by their perspective.  But certainly Griphook was. 

And I totally agree about the goblin subplot adding some murky complexity to the overall story.  I'm glad it wasn't completely resolved.

[Listener]

http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2007/07/harry_potter_the_death_list.html

The full list of Obits from Book Seven, written amusingly.

[Heradel]

It's been going around the media that Dumbledore's gay, but it seems kind of weird that it's gotten as much attention as it has. I kinda guessed that he might be while I was reading the books, but it didn't enter the story because it really didn't matter to the story.

Does it change things for anyone else? Will it end up being just another reason the book ends up being banned?

[Rachel Swirsky]

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2007/10/20/hes-gay-and-hes-native-american-rowling-and-scalzi-claim-marginal-identities-for-charcters-after-the-fact/

[Russell Nash]

It's been going around the media that Dumbledore's gay, but it seems kind of weird that it's gotten as much attention as it has. I kinda guessed that he might be while I was reading the books, but it didn't enter the story because it really didn't matter to the story.

Does it change things for anyone else? Will it end up being just another reason the book ends up being banned?

It is entirely unimportant to the story, so who cares?  All of the teachers live at the school without spouses.  Do they have saturday night orgies on the dungeons?  I don't care.  The stories weren't about them. 

I am sure however that some people will hit the roof about it and have a book burning.  Then over the years they will almost all rebuy the books, so it's good for Rowling.

[contra]

On another forum I saw someone ask if that means what Snape did was a hate crime

I laughed...

[Loz]

It's not that Dumbledore was gay that I have any problem with, it's the fact that he's gay, falls in love with the wrong boy when he's young, then when it ends badly decides to shut down emotionally and live a life of self-denying celibacy, because teh gheyness made him do bad things! Gee thanks J.K., good role model for the kids there. What's more, multi-zillionaire Rowling doesn't do anything to reveal this in her books, instead making another of her pronouncements after anyone who was likely to be offended had bought the book.

[Alasdair5000]

   Or as a friend of mine put it:  'My God, the woman writes her own slash fic.'

[Heradel]

To offer a view from the other side I'll point to Neil Gaiman's journal, quoted below.

Neil --
In Ross Douthat's recent column in the Atlantic Monthly concerning the J.K. Rowling press of late (http://tinyurl.com/yq2wz2), Douthat suggests that "a writer confident in her powers wouldn't feel the need to announce details like this". It seems odd to me that ulterior motives are so quickly suspected -- she was an author answering a question with additional information not previously known. Do you find yourself withholding information during Q&A if it's not already contained in the story? Why or why not?

All that tells us is that Ross Douthat doesn't write fiction.

You always wind up knowing more about your characters than you can get onto the page. Pages are finite, and the story isn't about giving you all the information about everyone in it any more than life is. Things the author knows about characters (or at least, strongly suspects -- it's never really real until it hits the page, because the process of writing is also a process of discovery) that don't make it onto the page could include the characters' backstory, what they like to eat, the toothpaste they use, what happens to them after the story is over or before it began, and what they do in bed. That something didn't turn up in the books just means it didn't make it onto the page or wasn't relevant to the story. (Or even, it made it in and the author cut that scene out because it didn't work. One of my favourite scenes in Anansi Boys went because it made the chapter work better when it was gone.)

(I remember being astonished when I learned a few years ago, from an obituary, that two teachers I'd had as a child were a same-sex couple. Mostly astonished because at the age where they taught me, I didn't imagine that teachers had romantic lives, or were even entirely human; and learning that they were a pair reconfigured everything I knew about them, which wasn't very much.)

...

There's more, but that seems to be the pertinent section.

[DKT]

It's not that Dumbledore was gay that I have any problem with, it's the fact that he's gay, falls in love with the wrong boy when he's young, then when it ends badly decides to shut down emotionally and live a life of self-denying celibacy, because teh gheyness made him do bad things! Gee thanks J.K., good role model for the kids there.

See, this kind of thing really confuses me because in my mind, it actually makes Dumbledore that much more of a flawed character.