Author Topic: Why do the UK SF/F Writers Get to Have all the Fun?  (Read 7689 times)

DKT

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on: August 10, 2007, 06:53:41 PM
I'm posting this in response to Steve's intro to the Veteran episode.  I'd kind of noticed I've been reading a lot of UK SF/F lately, I hadn't noticed that it was such a trend for other people, too.  Any thoughts to expand on what Steve said in the intro? 

Is it a reaction American writers have to Hollywood's interpretation of SF -- big explosions and thin plot -- that kind of goes with the Mundane Movement?  (I don't know very much about the origins of the Mundane Movement in SF.)

I think there's definitely something to be said about the energy several of the UK writers bring to their work.  I'm currently reading Elizabeth Bear's Hammered.  I'm not very far into it, but it seems to be exciting thus far.  Earlier this year I read Old Man's War, which was a blast.  Both these books have energy to them, but aside from those two authors, the genre stuff I've been reading has been British.  (I'd also throw in Alasdair Reynolds and Richard K. Morgan to the mix of UK writers I find myself reading/have heard of other people reading).  Obviously, I'm thinking more about novels than I am short stories. 

I'm not sure why I'm reading more of the UK stuff.  Some of it seems fresher to me (Mieville was like literally nothing else I'd read).  Some of it (like Richard K. Morgan) just sounded like a lot of fun.  Some of it (Stross) was because a lot of people told me I should (Um, thanks). 

So, any thoughts on what the attractiveness is?


Zathras

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Reply #1 on: August 10, 2007, 08:23:12 PM
I found Stephen's comment interesting also.   Looking back at the last four sci-fi books I read, I see that three were written by UK writers (David Mitchell, Peter Hamilton, Stephen Baxter).  The fourth author, Vernor Vinge, was born in WI and is fellow cheesehead.  8)   I usually choose books based on friends recommendations or those of the sci-fi bookstore I frequent. Funny that three of four turned out to be from the UK, I never thought much about it before Stephen's comments. 



Dex

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Reply #2 on: August 11, 2007, 05:17:23 PM
Maybe we need someone in the publishing biz to weigh in.

My guess is that it has to do with the economics of book publishing.

The UK publishing - distribution; marketing etc - threshold to publish a book might be lower than in the USA.  So publishers can take more chances on authors and the number of titles.  Then if a book is successful in the UK it is brought to the USA.  Even if a book is not successful in the UK many of the costs have been incurred so those selling it don't need much from the USA publisher to help their profit.

So I think it comes down to how much risk the publisher is willing to take.  The UK publishers can afford to be more liberal in their selection; while the USA publishers are forced to be more conservative.

Follow the money!
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 05:27:17 PM by Dex »



Russell Nash

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Reply #3 on: August 11, 2007, 06:10:31 PM
Maybe we need someone in the publishing biz to weigh in.

My guess is that it has to do with the economics of book publishing.

The UK publishing - distribution; marketing etc - threshold to publish a book might be lower than in the USA.  So publishers can take more chances on authors and the number of titles.  Then if a book is successful in the UK it is brought to the USA.  Even if a book is not successful in the UK many of the costs have been incurred so those selling it don't need much from the USA publisher to help their profit.

So I think it comes down to how much risk the publisher is willing to take.  The UK publishers can afford to be more liberal in their selection; while the USA publishers are forced to be more conservative.

Follow the money!


With market size and everything I'd say it's exactly opposite.  It's the same as movies and why there are more American movies than British. 

The question is: are these books first published in the UK and then maybe get to the States or are they published in the States, but the writers are British.  I'll restate it this way, is it the publishing companies or the writers making the difference.

I ask it that way, because I know many teachers that will tell you with the federal defunding of education that started in the 80s is to blame.  Poorer literature and writing instruction has hurt the quality of writing in general and poorer science has hurt SF specifically.

If there are any teachers in the forums, I'd like to hear their two bits on this.



Alasdair5000

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Reply #4 on: August 14, 2007, 09:24:42 AM
Maybe we need someone in the publishing biz to weigh in.

My guess is that it has to do with the economics of book publishing.

The UK publishing - distribution; marketing etc - threshold to publish a book might be lower than in the USA.  So publishers can take more chances on authors and the number of titles.  Then if a book is successful in the UK it is brought to the USA.  Even if a book is not successful in the UK many of the costs have been incurred so those selling it don't need much from the USA publisher to help their profit.

So I think it comes down to how much risk the publisher is willing to take.  The UK publishers can afford to be more liberal in their selection; while the USA publishers are forced to be more conservative.

Follow the money!


   Absolutely.  Two examples of this;  firstly, graphic novel and comic author Warren Ellis recently had his first novel, Crooked Little Vein, published in the US only.  Ellis is one of the major comic writers out there, hugely respected, large (and at times rabid) fan base and the novel's been delayed until, I think, the end of the year in England.  I can only assume this is because he's best known as a comic author and as most comics sell in the States...
   Charles Stross is another one.  I interviewed him a little while back to coincide with the release of Glasshouse and he mentioned that The Atrocity Archives was coming out in England in the back end of 2007.  It's a fantastic book, crucially a book set in a very, VERY English setting and it's taken three or four other novels out for his UK publisher to take a punt on it.  Again, Stross is successful in the States and still making his name over here from what I can tell.
   It flows in the other direction too.  Greg Rucka's a fantastic thriller writer and the only way you can get most of his books in England is by import or through the comic supplier that sells the superhero comics he writes.



DKT

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Reply #5 on: August 14, 2007, 04:17:38 PM
This is slightly more of a horror thing, Alasdair, but I'm pretty sure Mike Carey's (one of the long-term Hellblazer comic book writers) novel "The Devil You Know" came out a while back in the UK.  It came out in the States more recently in hardback.  This kind of surprises me, because I would've thought his career was larger in the states (although I have no idea how many people in the UK read Hellblazer).

I'm really eager to read the book but I'll probably wait 'til paperback.


Alasdair5000

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Reply #6 on: August 15, 2007, 07:29:14 AM
(Barney Bear style palm to forehead in embarassment)

   You're absolutely right, it did and, oddly enough, has been immediately optioned for TV by the people behind Midsomer Murders.  Cracking book too, as is the sequel, well worth tracking down.



DKT

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Reply #7 on: August 15, 2007, 03:07:32 PM
There's already a sequel?  See, that's what I'm talking about!  The first one just got here!  Yeah, I'm looking forward to reading it.


raygunray

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Reply #8 on: August 15, 2007, 05:22:24 PM
I think it comes down to ideology and education.  There is a different temperament between US and UK writers. I recall Ian McLeod saying that UK writers have a more well-rounded secondary education steeped in language, history and philosophy.  If you wanted to go into programming, like Stross and Macleod, you attended Redbrick or Glass colleges that stressed only technical training.  Hence, Brits have a better grounding in critical thinking and have a more philosophical bent.

In the USA, with our Progressive approach, is more interested in skill sets and filling jobs.  Without going into an editorial about our poor secondary education system, we don't teach kids any more than they need to know. Most kids aren't exposed to ideas and philosophy until college but by then many perceptions of reality are nearly concrete.  Also, they can't write or speak well, have little historical knowledge and much of their ideas of the world was molded by TV and their neighborhood culture.  Hence, we're about the action and tight narrative rather than philosophical musing and contemplations on technology's impact on culture.

We Yanks ask questions, but we don't ask the right questions.  Brits learn to ask the right questions.

Also, the USA is under the pall of an effervescent conservatism. Since 9/11, people are disinclined to ask questions that challenge the establishment.  Sadly, this is very apparent at SF cons.  Want to write another goddam Sword n' Sorcery novel? You'll get all the support you need.  Want to write a novel about technology nearly always being used by authoritarians to control the populous.  :-\

Just stick to whether a race of muppets can defeat a technologically advanced empire.

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Roney

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Reply #9 on: August 18, 2007, 01:15:54 AM
I find this sort of discussion comforting, because it's easy to assume that some inherent superiority in British SF will infuse my own writing sitting around thinking about stuff.  That aside...

One thing that Steve mentioned in the thread about The Scar applies to other British SF: it's politically engaged.  Iain Banks is a good place to start because to some extent it's thanks to him that there's a resurgent UK market for intelligent space opera.  (I'm not saying that he invented it, just that it takes at least one author to prove to publishers that there's an appetite for a particular type of story.)  Banks has described his Culture novels as a take on fun. galaxy-spanning stories that's an alternative to the Heinleinian Wild West ethos of much American Golden Age SF.  He has called the Culture "communist" (at least partly as a wind-up) and, I think, "anarcho-libertarian".  (Heinlein and Banks may have different takes on "libertarian".)

In the last 20 years I can think of only one SF novel more explicitly political than China Mieville's Iron Council, and that's Ken McLeod's debut The Star Fraction.  Charles Stross restlessly explores the boundaries between what we used to regard as personal and the technology that renders privacy obsolete.  Alasdair Reynolds constructs plots from flawed characters who need to have totally selfish goals because the rest of the decaying universe can only survive by looking out for number one: the losers in these struggles are snake food.  These British authors dress it up in whizz-bang, but a lot of the foundations are serious.

From an outsider's perspective, there are difficulties in writing like this in the US.  In the UK, political debate hasn't (yet: we usually adopt American trends after a few years) become as polarized and personal.  As in the US, most people aren't interested in politics -- you certainly can't sell a book on political grounds -- but those who are generally won't be offended by reading a differing point of view.  I think there's still plenty of great SF being written in the US but a lot of it seems... safe.

I believe that American writers want to write the best stories they can, but they also want to write the stories that their agents (those who have them) can sell.  I believe that American agents want to sell the best stories that their authors can write, but most importantly the ones that the editors will buy.  The editors want to buy the best stories that are being written, but the ones that will be distributed.  The distributors want to buy the ones that they can sell to the retailers.  The retailers want the ones that they can sell to the public.  Nobody wants a boycott.  Nobody wants to risk a political controversy that might alienate half the market.  In other fields you might risk it for the publicity, but controversy doesn't drive sales to SF.

It's really easy to set up these chains where you second-guess what the person above you is second-guessing is acceptable.  It leads to stories that are interesting and marketable but not necessarily dynamic and provocative.  My impression is that American short stories continue to be more interesting than British ones (on average) because the market is (a) much bigger than for British short fiction and (b) less susceptible to external forces.  But British SF authors have recently managed to carve out a niche for exciting novels.  Often in hardcover (although this may say more about the rising disposable income of British IT professionals).

How that fits with Charles Stross finding a US publisher before a UK one, I don't know.  It's just a silly theory.



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Reply #10 on: August 18, 2007, 08:34:43 PM
As an American Outsider, I too noticed that UK writers don't flinch at politcal discussions.  I spent plenty of time with them when I lived in Europe.  I had a drinking buddy who was Labor actvist and a proud Socialist.  Another was an anarchist. Both could explain their positions well and tolerated opposing viewpoints.  If and when an American discussed politics, they attacked from a fullsome adversarial postion and demonized their oposition.  We Americans have a problem with that, so we just tend to avoid political discussions.  They just end in argurments and resentment.

My Labor buddy explained us well.  Americans don't have to be political because we have better upward mobility.  The class structure isn't as rigid and we tend to appreciate heterogenity and diversity.  Hence, we're more egalitarian.  A steeworker votes labor to protect his job.  A Tory votes to protect his factory.  Neither thinks about the consequences to the nation at whole.  Even one's reigonal dialect can prohibit entrance to college or a job.  No one apologizes for this.

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wakela

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Reply #11 on: August 23, 2007, 12:54:43 AM
disclaimer: I'm American.

I'm not sure about the political argument.  There seems to be an implication that challenging, political fiction equals good fiction, and I don't think this is the case.  Over in the "nihilism in The Scar" topic there seems to be agreement that Iron Council is the least interesting of the Meiville "Big Three" because of it's heavy politics ... then again maybe everyone who expressed opinion is American ...

Also, American fans are the ones buying these British books and making them successful in the US.  So whatever political challenges these books are expressing aren't making the yanks uncomfortable.