Escape Artists
The Lounge at the End of the Universe => Gallimaufry => Topic started by: Simon Painter on April 21, 2007, 04:06:25 PM
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Here's a topic for discussing Foreign Languages. Do you speak any? Do you want to? If you do, what's a really good way to learn? Where are there good places to practice?
Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK
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well im "learning" spanish... but this is my last year ever dealing with spanish in school ever again... personally i cant stand the language, ive been taking it for... about 8 or 9 years now and i still cannot speak it. i can speak broken spanish, and understand a good deal of it.
i WANT to learn either german, russian, or japanese. those seem like cool, interesting languages to learn.
best way to learn i guess is in school... or some kinda class
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I'm learning German myself, it is a great fun language to learn. Lessons are always good, I'm taking those myself at a local college, but I actually kicked off with the language by living there for a year. With French, though, I actually started off with MP3 lessons during my walk to work. I highly reccomend the Pimsleur language series, I actually managed to use them to skip having to do the Beginners French course and go straight into Intermediate.
Has anyone else ever used Pimsleur?
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Has anyone else ever used Pimsleur?
I've used Pimsleur, and was very happy with the results, thought disappointed in the application.
I had to learn Arabic for a job a few years ago and randomly grabbed Pimsleur from the shelf. I loaded the CDs on to my Ipod and listened to them on my way to work. Unfortunately I never really got a chance to interact with any Arab speakers and have promptly forgotten most all of it.
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I've learned Ukrainian since I was about three months old. I'm pretty good at it, and it gives a window of opportunity towards learning just about any Slavic language around.
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I have been living in Germany for 12 of the last 17 years. You would think by that time I would be fluent. Although I have a lot of German friends and understand German very well, I still have a think accent and never will be able to speak it like a German. I feel it is because we came from a school system that doesn't believe that we need to learn languages, because everybody is learning ours. Most European schools start teaching English when the kids are seven or eight years old, and you can really tell they understand the language and can even speak it with an English or American accent.
Just as an aside, I have used Pimsluer to learn French and it is an excellent system, but you do have to use the language or you will forget it very quickly.
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I have been living in Germany for 12 of the last 17 years. You would think by that time I would be fluent. Although I have a lot of German friends and understand German very well, I still have a think accent and never will be able to speak it like a German. I feel it is because we came from a school system that doesn't believe that we need to learn languages, because everybody is learning ours. Most European schools start teaching English when the kids are seven or eight years old, and you can really tell they understand the language and can even speak it with an English or American accent.
I'm not sure this is necessarily the fault of the American school system. In the German school system you start to learn English in 5th grade, so the children are 10 or 11 years old. I think English is much easier to learn as a foreign language compared to other languages. I had French in school and I found it way more difficult (especially difficult to speak) than English and the (non-German) people I know that learned German as a second language say the same thing.
Add that to the fact that nearly every scientific article you read at the university, every movie you download via bittorrent and a big majority of the websites you visit are in English and it is no wonder that Europeans speak normally better English than the other way round.
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I believe there have been studies done that show the younger you start to learn a language the easier it is to learn. Most schools in my area, don't start teaching foreign languages until high school, with a few starting around 7th or 8th grade. I took german, starting with Foreign language orientation in 7th grade (3 weeks each of spanish french and german). I also took german in college, but I haven't used it in ten years or more, and I would have difficulty trying to speak it. I *think* I would be able to ask someone if they spoke english, or to speak slowly because of being a foreigner if dropped in the middle of Germany.
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I believe there have been studies done that show the younger you start to learn a language the easier it is to learn.
That's the point I was trying to make. The Europeans start at seven or eight. The studies show that if one never learns a language before 12 then it is to late to start and expect to sound like a native speaker. The brain needs to be wired to learn languages early on.
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My sister and I both grew up in OH. When I was 17 and she was 16 we moved to the Philippines. Although our parents never really taught us the language (Filipino), we understood enough from eavesdropping on their conversations. Ten years later, she speaks like a native whereas I come off sounding like a jerk. Same background, different results.
P.S. I'm not dumber than my sister. :P
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My sister and I both grew up in OH. When I was 17 and she was 16 we moved to the Philippines. Although our parents never really taught us the language (Filipino), we understood enough from eavesdropping on their conversations. Ten years later, she speaks like a native whereas I come off sounding like a jerk. Same background, different results.
P.S. I'm not dumber than my sister. :P
isn't their language similar to spanish due to occupation/colonization?
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P.S. I'm not dumber than my sister. :P
Just because you're no dumber than she is does not mean you have the same ability to master languages. It's a really specific ability, relating to (among other things) how good your ear is at parsing words and phrases plus how good your mouth is at making and replicating sounds plus how good your mind is at recall. She could be far better than you at any of those or any of a number of other linguistic helping abilities.
I think most of what has been said here about sounding like a native boils down to mastering making sounds, and yes, the palate hardens with age and you become physically unable to make certain sounds when supposedly (science suggests, anyway) everyone is born with the ability to make all available sounds and clicks made in all languages.
Believe me, I teach Spanish to three year olds, and some children are noticeably better than others at various aspects of the language learning skillset. Some of those kids already struggle to make the hard r, while some of them pick it up effortlessly. This ability doesn't correlate directly with (school performance) intelligence, as near as I can tell.
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On a similar note, I just got back from a holiday in Germany and while there I got talking with a lady from Romania. Not only does she speak her own language but also Germany, English and Latin (and was working for a Croatian restaurant, so presumably Croation as well).
That absolutely staggared me, she was most amused to hear about how bad the teaching of language is in the UK atm.
Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK
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I live in Japan, and I've been beating my head against the Japanese language for several years. I could go on for pages about studying Japanese, but I'll just hit you guys with some interesting tidbits.
We have a Peruvian friend who's been here about as long as I have. She picked up the language through friends while I took lessons. My wife, who is Japanese, says that our Peruvian friend's Japanese is more fluent, but she makes more mistakes. My Japanese is more stilted, but I speak more correctly. Which is better?
Also, I can at least read a little. I've only met one person who learned to read and write on his own. There isn't a neat one to one to one relationship between character and meaning and pronunciation. The character for inexpensive also means safe. The character for elephant also means pattern, imitate, and image. Each character has at least two pronunciations, and all bets are off if it appears in a word. The words are tricky to spot, since they don'tuseanyspaces.
But the kanji allow for great specificity. They have one word for "the first leaves of spring", one word for "visiting the graves of your ancestors."
There is also the social and cultural aspect. As a gaijin (note: not a derogatory term), they give me a pass on these. You use different words when talking superiors than to equals. You don't just throw a "sir" at the end of your sentence or use the "usted" form of the verb, you use entirely different words. But when talking about superiors to members of another group, like referring to your company president to someone at a different company, you use diminutive words, because everything about you is lower than anything about the other person. Even if someone is one or two years older you should use respectful language.
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I read an article in The Economist a while back that suggested that (assuming you live in a different country) hanging around in bars is more effective than taking language lessons. When you think about it, if you took the time and money you would spend on lessons and apply that to making friends with the locals and buying rounds, it's not a crazy idea.
Whether you go the alcoholic or academic route, there is no substitute for living there. I studied Japanese in the US for three years, and when I came here I was put in a class with people who had been studying for six months.
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I´ve been in Germany for almost 8 years and I´m fluent - meaning I can happily discuss almost anything with almost anyone without having to search for vocabulary. However my grammar is still far from perfect. Perhaps I should take some lessons.
I second the idea that hanging around in bars is a good idea...although Germans are a notoriously difficult people to get to know in bars, small talk being not exactly their strong suit. I must admit that TV was more my tutor. Watching dubbed reruns of Home Improvement and the Fresh Prince of Bel-air brought me to the level I am today. And may explain why I say Hey, man a lot.
Australia also has a really poor language education system. Here it is taken very seriously and started very young (as already mentioned). In fact, there are at least 3 bilingual kindergartens in my neighbourhood and many well-educated parents consider multiple languages a priority. I know several who have deliberately sought out non-German babysitters for that reason.
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Anyone here speak Esperanto?
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I would like to defend the US, UK, and Australia's "poor" second language educations. True, that they are well below most Europe, but it is simply not as necessary for a native English speaker to study Spanish or French as it is for a German to study English. I'm not discounting the benefits of learning another language, but I would rather my kid spend her precious school time studing more science, math, and English than Spanish or French.
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wakela: I´ll certainly agree with you that as a native English speaker you don´t need a second language to survive in the world. I´d also agree that more maths and science is a good thing (seeing as I am a scientist).
However I would say that the English classes (unless it´s changed A LOT since I studied in Oz) teach you very little about the language, and every two-language speaker I know will assure you that you only really start to understand your own language when you learn another. Because then you have to learn the rules instead "I dunno, it just sounds right".
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I'd just link to second what wherethewild said. English lessons in England don't teach grammar at all these days. It actually wasn't until I started learning German that I knew what Verbs and Nouns were!
I'm also gaining an appreciation for just how messed up the rules of English pronunciation are :P
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i am fluent in gibberish and a Friend of mine keeps trying to teach me Polari
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Good points. I think you guys just made good cases for studying less foreign language and more English grammar. I came out of school with a pretty good grasp of grammar, but I went to a private school, so it's not representative of US education. Though I sure got stumped a few times teaching English to Japanese people.
Are the pronunciation rules for English harder than those of French? I haven't studied German, but it looks pretty straightforward once you learn those extra funny little characters.
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There are next to no solid rules for English pronunciation, at least none without dozens of exceptions.
F'rinstance, the word 'Ghoti' could be pronounced 'gow-tee' 'fish' or ' ' depending on how you look at it.
French and German are completely phonetic, as indeed is pretty much any language that isn't English!
Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK
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French and German are completely phonetic, as indeed is pretty much any language that isn't English!
Or Welsh! (Somebody, buy those people a vowel!)
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Try explaining the pronunciation difference between trough, though, through, thought! Ha! Gets ´em every time. The other toughie to a German is why vary is pronounced var-ee and not var-eye when the word is variety. Always get that one wrong. Hmmm, maybe I should write a book on common German mispronunciations (video/wideo has to be one of my favourites). Gotta be a winner.
Again I´ll make the point that even being taught your own grammar doesn´t necessarily work that well. It´s so self explanatory to you as a native speaker ("well, duh, that´s ´cause it sounds right" was my normal response in school) that you never really learn it. I´d challenge any native speaker with a basic school English education to explain what an progressive present participle is or pluperfect tense without looking it up.
Do we need our kids to know English that well? Well, probably not. Do we need our kids to understand surds or cosine function in order to get by in the world? Also, probably not. Do we need our kids to understand other languages? I will always argue yes, because with the understanding of another language comes an insight and connection to another culture and that can only help integration and intercultural relationships. Which would hopefully lead to a happier world.
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Actually I'd argue that it is important for kids to learn correct grammar. Not necessarily the whole hog with Pluperfect tenses, etc, but enough to be able to understand how English is constructed. I think (in England, anyway) there's been a consistent drop in the quality of English over the last few centuries.
The way I see it, if standard grammar isn't covered in schools, local dialects begin to take a greater precedent (or often in the UK's case, American accents as heard on the TV!) and it could become harder for effective communication to take place not just between different regions, but with other countries (if there's no standard of grammar, how will they be able to learn to understand the way anyone's talking?)
Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK
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The way I see it, if standard grammar isn't covered in schools, local dialects begin to take a greater precedent (or often in the UK's case, American accents as heard on the TV!) and it could become harder for effective communication to take place not just between different regions, but with other countries (if there's no standard of grammar, how will they be able to learn to understand the way anyone's talking?)
I think time will only homogenize the language more, and unfortunately it's all going to start sounding American because of TV and YouTube.
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French and German are completely phonetic, as indeed is pretty much any language that isn't English!
I am in no position to challenge as I know absolutely nothing about either language. But please explain how this is pronounced phonetically:
"laissez les bon temps roulet"
Half of the letters are silent. Is it that something like "emps" is a French phoneme that is always pronounced "aw" (with the throaty Frenchiness)?
NOTE: The above is not intended to be sarcastic or challenging. I really have no idea and would like it explained to me.
The Japanese do a pretty good job with English spelling. Unlike the French and Germans they are not coming from a position of thinking that spelling should make any sense. There is no reliable correlation between the shape of a kanji and it's pronunciation. They just have to memorize that this shape is pronounced this way in this context. I think for this reason they can adopt to to arbitrariness of English spelling. One guy told me that he studies the shape English words. It's "carry" not "cally" because "carry" is flat on top like a road. You could carry something across the top of "carry", but not "cally."
Though they do mix up their l's and r's, and it never stops being funny.
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It's phonetic because the rules concerning unpronounced letters is *consistent* unlike English where it's amost arbitrary. As I understand it in French the last constantnant is not pronounced on any word, excepting when the following word begins with a vowel.
Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK
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French and German are completely phonetic, as indeed is pretty much any language that isn't English!
Or Welsh! (Somebody, buy those people a vowel!)
Are you so sure they're missing one? Their LL is a vowel.
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Oh, sorry Wakela you you had a particular phrase in mind, I just remembered.
"laissez les bon temps roulet"
I think it's pronounced something like 'Lay-say lay boh'n tomp roo-lay' I think it means 'let the good times roll' though I'm not sure, I'm still on the intermediate level with French.
Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK
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Oh, sorry Wakela you you had a particular phrase in mind, I just remembered.
"laissez les bon temps roulet"
I think it's pronounced something like 'Lay-say lay boh'n tomp roo-lay' I think it means 'let the good times roll' though I'm not sure, I'm still on the intermediate level with French.
Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK
Sorry to correct you, but it's
"Laissez les bon temps rouler". Close, but not quite correct.
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America is definitely wrong in teaching language--rules of brain development show that if you are not exposed to a foreign language before age 12 you will never lose the accent. We start teaching foreign languages in high school. >:(
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Oh, sorry Wakela you you had a particular phrase in mind, I just remembered.
"laissez les bon temps roulet"
I think it's pronounced something like 'Lay-say lay boh'n tomp roo-lay' I think it means 'let the good times roll' though I'm not sure, I'm still on the intermediate level with French.
Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK
Thanks, MadJ.
Sorry to correct you, but it's
"Laissez les bon temps rouler". Close, but not quite correct.
Yeah, when I typed it in I knew that I would make a complete mess of the spelling. But I did google the phrase and "roulet" is what I got. I have since googled "rouler" , and that looks good, too. So now what do we do? If you can't trust the internet who can you trust?! ;)
For what it's worth, "rouler" looks more familiar to me. This phrase is a slogan in New Orleans (where I'm from), and it's written on half the T-shirts.
America is definitely wrong in teaching language--rules of brain development show that if you are not exposed to a foreign language before age 12 you will never lose the accent. We start teaching foreign languages in high school.
You are right if we assume that teaching a second language should be a high priority in the US. IMHO, the hour a child spends studying another language would be better spent studying something else.
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IMHO, the hour a child spends studying another language would be better spent studying something else.
Really? Like what? Music?
Because you know, foreign language study in elementary school not only gives kids better test scores in English vocab and comprehension, it might even give them better spatial abilities (http://www.yearoflanguages.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3653)!
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IMHO, the hour a child spends studying another language would be better spent studying something else.
Really? Like what? Music?
That may have come out a little stronger than intended. I'm not saying people who study foreign languages shouldn't be allowed to marry and have abortions...sorry, just caught up with the tolerance thread.
I'm not against the study of foreign languages. And I agree that foreign language study has all kinds of benefits, but so does the study for chess and the study of house building. I just think that more concentration on the basics: science, math, English, history, etc. is more practical than studying a foreign language. This goes for people who are raised knowing English.
I bristle when people say that the American system is WRONG because we aren't taught to be bi-lingual. Though now that I think of it, the American system is wrong because the time is spent to make us bi-lingual, but we are not. I think it would be better to go one way or the other. Either teach a foreign language the right way (and there are plenty of successful models) or skip it.
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I'm not against the study of foreign languages. And I agree that foreign language study has all kinds of benefits, but so does the study for chess and the study of house building. I just think that more concentration on the basics: science, math, English, history, etc. is more practical than studying a foreign language. This goes for people who are raised knowing English.
I bristle when people say that the American system is WRONG because we aren't taught to be bi-lingual. Though now that I think of it, the American system is wrong because the time is spent to make us bi-lingual, but we are not. I think it would be better to go one way or the other. Either teach a foreign language the right way (and there are plenty of successful models) or skip it.
I, respectfully, disagree.
Although I fall in with the "Welcome to America, learn to speak English" crowd, I think we are shooting ourselves in the foot by not using more foreign languages, and not traveling more. Also, the American education system needs to provide not only a core education (Math, History, and English) but a sampling of other types of education, like shop class, science, art, philosophy, and foreign languages. Our education system is being pared down to becoming education factories. No frills, no depth, just test scores in the major areas. Where will that put us 20 years from now, when we're importing all our welders, historians, philosophers, and linguists?
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(this is just an aside and not part of the language discussion, feel free to skip over it)
Where will that put us 20 years from now, when we're importing all our welders, historians, philosophers, and linguists?
In my field (science), America is already starting to realise that the majority of the research workforce are immigrants. It seems that most leave science studies early for law/medicine/business. Understandable of course, because a career as a research scientist is low paying, high stress, and no job security. But still.
So just pointing out that you don´t have to wait 20 years to see that happening.
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IMHO, the hour a child spends studying another language would be better spent studying something else.
Really? Like what? Music?
That may have come out a little stronger than intended. I'm not saying people who study foreign languages shouldn't be allowed to marry and have abortions...sorry, just caught up with the tolerance thread.
I'm not against the study of foreign languages. And I agree that foreign language study has all kinds of benefits, but so does the study for chess and the study of house building. I just think that more concentration on the basics: science, math, English, history, etc. is more practical than studying a foreign language. This goes for people who are raised knowing English.
I bristle when people say that the American system is WRONG because we aren't taught to be bi-lingual. Though now that I think of it, the American system is wrong because the time is spent to make us bi-lingual, but we are not. I think it would be better to go one way or the other. Either teach a foreign language the right way (and there are plenty of successful models) or skip it.
I think the biggest problem in teaching Foreign Language is that kids aren't forced to use it and converse in it. I took two years of HS Spanish and one semester of Spanish in College, and I still don't really know how to converse. I can construct sentences and pick out words, but I can't say I speak the language.
IMO total immersion, with no use of your native language, is probably the best way to learn a new language the way it's supposed to be spoken. The problem is that leads to frustration, because it's hard, and as a culture we tend to deplore difficult things.
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Agreed. If you can't ask for a bus ride in a language, chances are you need to practise it more.
For example: I know all the colours in the world in German, and a few of the useflull verbs, such as the verb that is watching TV and listening, but, if I went to Germany, I wouldn't be able to ask for the washroom.
But, on the other hand, I went to a French school for eight years, and can ask for a Mocha, Double Chocholate, whippedcream with extra caramel croissant in France.
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I think the biggest problem in teaching Foreign Language is that kids aren't forced to use it and converse in it. I took two years of HS Spanish and one semester of Spanish in College, and I still don't really know how to converse. I can construct sentences and pick out words, but I can't say I speak the language.
Having taken 5 years of German in middle and high school, and then another 3 years in college it wasn't until I lived in the country a while before it really started to gel. I knew I had it when I not only understood conversations I was having at a bar with people, BUT the conversations going on around me. It has been 20 years now since I lived there. It takes a few mins to pick up things on DW (Deutsche Welle) and when I pick up a copy of Stern it is hit or miss if my brain will let me read it, Spiegel is out of reach anymore alas.
My wife, who I met in Germany over 20 years ago, is a polyglot. She is currently learning Spanish by watching TeleNovelas and then the same night posting summaries of them in English. She also speaks German and French, as well as English. Her brain is wired such that she picks up languages really easy, her degree is in journalism so words clearly are something she enjoys, but it is amazing to me that she can watch these things on TV and then understand them so quickly. I am sure she will pick up Italian as soon as she is done with Spanish already I she tells me that Spanish and Italian are very similar.
I think that while European countries start to teach languages sooner is important, the real difference is more that there is a greater tolerance/need/acceptance of foreign languages. In the US we get upset if we hear someone speak a foreign language. In Germany it was sometimes a struggle to get folks to speak German to me once they knew I was an American.
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I studied Japanese for about three years. Then when I came to Japan I was put in a Japanese class for people who had studied for three months. That's the difference between studying everyday in a foreign country and studying once a week at home. As a bonus, since most of my classmates in Japan didn't speak English, we had to use Japanese to socialize.
In the US we get upset if we hear someone speak a foreign language. In Germany it was sometimes a struggle to get folks to speak German to me once they knew I was an American.
It depends on where you are (I guess. I've lived many places in the US, and I've almost never heard anyone get upset when they heard a foreign language). Where I lived in New York English was the minority language. Are you comparing rural US to urban Germany? I would imaging that English ability drops off the further you get in the countryside.
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Are you comparing rural US to urban Germany? I would imaging that English ability drops off the further you get in the countryside.
Only amongst the older generation (50+). Everyone else has had to study some at school (even if they left really young), and in rural Germany they see less foreigners so then it´s even more exciting to use English for them.
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If I could go back, I would have learned a lot more languages and spent some time living in countries where they were used -- Quebec, somewhere in South America, Japan, Russia, Germany...
I really do want to learn Russian. I just don't have the time right now. It sucks.
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A school friend of my husband now speaks over 15 languages. He was raised bilingual (German/Latvian) and just picks up langauges. He wanted to do a bike tour through Sweden, so he learnt Swedish (and now apparently lectures on Swedish grammar).
He said he just picks up a grammar book, reads it, and once you´ve got the rules down (apparently easy after the first 3 or 4 languages) the rest is just vocabulary.
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I had the good fortune of learning French by immersion, though my mother tongue is English. I happen to think it's the best way to get good pronunciation and comprehension, but I'm biased. I still listen to radio and watch television in French, and read occasionally in French, but only rarely do I get to use it.
For what it's worth, "laissez les bon temps rouler" is a Cajun colloquialism and not actually a French expression. I'd be more inclined to say "prenons du bon temps" as a translation of "let the good times roll."
JoeFitz
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A school friend of my husband now speaks over 15 languages. He was raised bilingual (German/Latvian) and just picks up langauges. He wanted to do a bike tour through Sweden, so he learnt Swedish (and now apparently lectures on Swedish grammar).
He said he just picks up a grammar book, reads it, and once you´ve got the rules down (apparently easy after the first 3 or 4 languages) the rest is just vocabulary.
I imagine so. Japanese grammar is relatively straightforward but the vocab is a pain.
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I really do want to learn Russian. I just don't have the time right now. It sucks.
I highly reccomend getting some MP3 lessons for a player, like Pimsleur or something similar, I'm actually learning French during my walk to work :)
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It depends on where you are (I guess. I've lived many places in the US, and I've almost never heard anyone get upset when they heard a foreign language). Where I lived in New York English was the minority language. Are you comparing rural US to urban Germany? I would imaging that English ability drops off the further you get in the countryside.
I dunno... I don't see the same desire for a non speaker to "practice" with a speaker here in the US. I mean I see it every now and again, I have a friend who I worked with at Motorola who is into speech recognition and speech generation who will have people say words to him in foreign languages and he tries to say them back (getting a feel for the language) he also speaks a ton of them and is one of those really good guys at placing accents. HOWEVER, it is rare I see a native speaker of a another language communicate in their native language with a person here who does not also natively speak that language. Just for the record I live in Chicago which has HUGE immigrant populations so it isn't like native non English speakers are hard to find.
So when I go to my local Tacqueira the person who immigrated from Mexico who is behind the counter understands both English and Spanish but is clearly more comfortable in Spanish. BUT when I go to the Jewel the girl who is the cashier will not practice her Spanish on the native speakers that are in her line. Which was exactly the kind of interactions I had as an English speaker in Germany rural vs urban did not seem to matter, they all wanted to speak English to me. My father visited me and didn't know a word of German. The only problems he ever had were driving because no one was there to explain the road signs to him.
Having said that my employer has lunch time learning session which will teach people Spanish, and on the days that class is in session I do notice that the participants do indeed speak Spanish the people who work in the cafeteria. So who knows...
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HOWEVER, it is rare I see a native speaker of a another language communicate in their native language with a person here who does not also natively speak that language.
Agreed. But I think that English has a unique status among languages. I don't know about Germany, but here in Japan it's cool and fun to speak English. English ability is also skill more like math and science than just a second language. People here are embarrassed when their English is bad, but not so much when their Chinese is bad.
I don't think it's fault of Americans that we are worse at languages than Europeans. It's apples and oranges. A European gets more bang for the buck learning English than an American gets learning French or Spanish. When a German and a Chinese do business, they are most likely speaking English. Also, Americans can travel further than Europeans can in their own country without having to switch languages.
English is like Windows, and other languages are like Macs and Linux. There is more reason to run a Windows emulator on a Mac or a Linux machine than visa-versa. Also, people who use Macs and Linux machines think they are cooler than people who just use PCs. ;)
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For the last two weeks I have been in Japan (Okinawa) and hadn't until this point seriously looked at Kanji. Clearly the Japanese have seen the advantage of the Western numerical system, and adopted that whole. Although there is an economy of expression (one character words) I still think Kanji suffers from a lack of word attack possibilities inherent in a phoneme based language. Once Westerners learn the Alphabet, and some basic phonics skills, we can take a stab at pronouncing any written word. There IS a Kanji dictionary, but it is based up the number of brush strokes in the word... quite the penmanship based way to try to look something up! I really think in the long run (a thousand years or so) a phoneme/alphabet based language will become dominant--it might still be Japanese, but words written like these, not pictographs.
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I really think in the long run (a thousand years or so) a phoneme/alphabet based language will become dominant--it might still be Japanese, but words written like these, not pictographs.
I understand the prediction of Kanji going away - though I don't know how well-founded it is, given that you've only spent two weeks in the country - but why would you predict a phoneme based language, as opposed to Kana, which is syllable based and has the advantage of already existing?
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OK, now you've got me started. I've been living in Japan for the last three years, and, since my goal is Japanese fluencey, I've spend an enormous amount of time studying kanji.
Although there is an economy of expression (one character words) I still think Kanji suffers from a lack of word attack possibilities inherent in a phoneme based language. Once Westerners learn the Alphabet, and some basic phonics skills, we can take a stab at pronouncing any written word. There IS a Kanji dictionary, but it is based up the number of brush strokes in the word... quite the penmanship based way to try to look something up! I really think in the long run (a thousand years or so) a phoneme/alphabet based language will become dominant--it might still be Japanese, but words written like these, not pictographs.
Who knows what's going to happen in a thousand years. Look at the previous thousand. But I don't think Japanese people feel they are at any kind of disadvantage with having to learn kanji. I'm sure they hate it at the time (I know I do), but believe it or not, there are advantages. One/two characters per word, as you mentioned. Also, the meanings of those characters are very specific and allow for very specific words to be created or made up on the fly. For example they have one word that means "visiting a grave" and "the first fruit of spring." In my Japanese lesson I was confused by a sentence written all in kana until the teacher wrote the kanji for me. Also, there are so many words that sound the same in Japanese, that Japanese TV shows often have Japanese subtitles! When they read English they can't believe that we put up with so many strange spellings and have such ridiculously long words as "automobile."
I think the effect of computers will be interesting. People no longer have to write the things out, so they forget all those little strokes. They can read them, but writing ability is fading. Like us with spellcheckers.
So how do you like Okinawa? My wife and I honeymooned there. Let me know if you get up Tokyo way!
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Seriously, dude, when is the last time you said the word "automobile" is casual conversation? About as often as Horseless Carriage, unless you are British, Brits do seem to love their antiquarian expressions. :)
I noticed the subtitles! I thought we were talking serious dialect problems, I didn't realize it was for the reasons you gave... isn't that kind of a problem, to have a language be so imprecise as to require the subtitles for a native speaker to understand? English is so robust and redundant you can garble it way up and still comprehend. True, that reduces efficiency, but that is more than compensated for by increased fidelity. Also, I don't really notice the Japanese take less time to say a similar concept--maybe they are expressing it more deeply? ;)
I got here for the worst Typhoon since 1951. :-\
Only staying a few more days. Well, off to Lawson's Station for some more Orion Beer! ;D
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I noticed the subtitles! I thought we were talking serious dialect problems, I didn't realize it was for the reasons you gave... isn't that kind of a problem, to have a language be so imprecise as to require the subtitles for a native speaker to understand? English is so robust and redundant you can garble it way up and still comprehend. True, that reduces efficiency, but that is more than compensated for by increased fidelity. Also, I don't really notice the Japanese take less time to say a similar concept--maybe they are expressing it more deeply?
And yet they don't use the subtitles on the news. I think they are mostly used on those loony variety shows where people are speaking more informally. Japanese don't seem to have any problems using the phone, either. Though it's funny to hear them "spell" an unusual last name. They have to describe what the kanji looks like in terms of other kanji. "It's like a wisteria without the tree over a moon and rice field." I agree that Japanese seems to be less redundant. An American friend of mine here who speaks very good Japanese says that if you miss the beginning of a conversation it's really hard to figure out what they are talking about. You can leave the subject out of a sentence, plurals are rarely used, and there is no noun-verb agreement.
Though you may have a point with the dialects. Usually, TV people speak Tokyo Japanese, which everyone in the country knows. But for some reason comedians often hail from Osaka, and Tokyo people may not get all the jokes, so they write them out on the screen. When we were in an Okinawa restaurant my wife asked the waiter why he wasn't speaking with an Okinawa dialect. He said that he knew she was from Tokyo, and that the way Okinawans speak would make her angry. It's too direct. We've been to parts of Japan where she has no idea what people are saying. I think it's like the UK in that regard.
I got here for the worst Typhoon since 1951.
Yeah, you guys had some fun with that one. We got some rain, but that's about it.
Only staying a few more days. Well, off to Lawson's Station for some more Orion Beer!
Pick up some coconut Pocky and Calpis for me!
Too bad you're not going to be here next month for World Con.
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I thought this study, about the correlation between the size of Heschl's Gyrus in the brain and the ability for adults to learn a second language was fascinating: http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2007/07/neuroscience.html
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I had a few dozen words and phrases in Inuvialuktun, but I was not very good at stringing them together. Also, the difference between some of the phonemes was imperceptible to me, so that I would be causing hilarity by attempting to pronounce one word, and having it come out as something else, like "snot" instead of "caribou calf".
I at least had enough to get the gist of captions on drawings.
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I want to learn Japanese. Even after having read this. (http://pepper.idge.net/japanese/) ;D
I don't know any Japanese-speakers to practice with, but I do have a lot of anime on DVD, and I listen to Japanese pop artists like Masami Okui and Ayumi Hamasaki all the time.
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oh, and I also have a couple of children's books in Japanese, and some untranslated manga of Urusei Yatsura, Ranma 1/2 as well as all six Revolutionary Girl Utena volumes.
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Since someone did some threadromancy, I'll tell you about my current adventure. I have the first Harry Potter in German on the top of my TBR pile. I'm going to take a break from the Terry Pratchett and really try to improve my German. Wish me luck.
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Russell, I am not sure you'll like that in German. The translation is rubbish and in German HP is much more of a children's book than in English, at least that is my impression. But if you do it to improve your German it is worth a try. But if you have read the English version, you might get really frustrated at the idiotic translations and the missing jokes/references you remember from the original.
Have fun with that, let us know how you liked it.
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I want to learn Japanese. Even after having read this. (http://pepper.idge.net/japanese/) ;D
I don't know any Japanese-speakers to practice with, but I do have a lot of anime on DVD, and I listen to Japanese pop artists like Masami Okui and Ayumi Hamasaki all the time.
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oh, and I also have a couple of children's books in Japanese, and some untranslated manga of Urusei Yatsura, Ranma 1/2 as well as all six Revolutionary Girl Utena volumes.
I checked out the link. It's pretty funny, and written by a guy who knows what he's talking about. I wouldn't say that Japanese is "hard." I would say "it takes a long time." There are just as many Japanese idiots as there are anywhere else, and they all speak excellent Japanese.
An American friend was one of the interpreters for Worldcon in Yokohama last year, and he never took a Japanese class. He got it all from manga and anime. OF course he REALLY likes manga and anime.
Well, as I mentioned in previous posts, I live in Japan and have spent a lot of time studying Japanese. I have materials and have formed strategies that I think are useful. But I don't think many people would be interested in them, so if you want to talk about Japanese study more, feel free to contact me directly. In the meantime check out these sites.
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/about/overview-page
http://forum.koohii.com/
The first one is a blog where the guy gives very specific details on how he achieved Japanese fluency in 18 months. Apparently it involves working your ass off.
The second one is the discussion forum on a kanji study website, but they talk about studying all aspects of Japanese. It's very n00b friendly.
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Since someone did some threadromancy, I'll tell you about my current adventure. I have the first Harry Potter in German on the top of my TBR pile. I'm going to take a break from the Terry Pratchett and really try to improve my German. Wish me luck.
The trick with reading practice is finding good stuff to read. The reading passages in text books try to be interesting, but we all know how that works out. And after I spend an hour translating a single paragraph in a newspaper only to find out that the finance minister's plan to decrease steel import quotas a quarter of a percent will likely not be but up to a vote I want too burn myself alive.
But Harry Potter is a pretty big bite. It might be more encouraging to read short stories. Then you could tell your self how many stories you have actually finished rather than what depressingly small percentage of Harry Potter and The 900 Pages you have put behind you.
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I've lived in Taiwan for over a year now. As a result of my ability to force myself to sit down somewhere and study, combined with my relative laziness in speaking to strangers, now I can read and write Chinese far better than I can speak it.
I figure it's fairly common to be more adept at reading/writing a foreign language than speaking it. But it takes a certain kind of dysfunctionality to achieve it in Chinese, of all languages.
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Since someone did some threadromancy, I'll tell you about my current adventure. I have the first Harry Potter in German on the top of my TBR pile. I'm going to take a break from the Terry Pratchett and really try to improve my German. Wish me luck.
Dude, that's been on your pile for ages. Glad you're getting around to it. It was the first book I'd ever read in German as well, although I had deliberately not read the English ones in order to force myself to knuckle down and do it. I started by reading it out loud to my husband, but then got quick enough that it was faster to read it to myself.
I read the last HP in English because I didn't want to wait 6 months for the translation. It just wasn't the same :(
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In 2005 I was lucky enough to visit Japan for a week. I studied enough Japanese to be able to point and play charades and stammer through a few words to get my point accross. Whenever I would stammer out a few poorly composed syllables native speakers would always comment on how fantastic my Japanese was (which was obviously just being polite). I had to learn the phrase "thank you, but my Japanese is absolutely horrible", which only made them rave about my linguistic skills more and try to engage me in conversation, which I couldn't understand at all.
The point of this is if someone tried to speak English in the US as poorly as I spoke Japanese in Japan the most likely response would be "This is America! Learn American or get out!" I don't understand that mentality. Odds are the person trying to speak English speaks it better than you could speak their native language. It drives me nuts! I wish Americans could be more accepting and encouraging like the Japanese.
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Hear, hear.
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I want to learn Japanese. Even after having read this. (http://pepper.idge.net/japanese/) ;D
Hilarious! It's like reading the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy entry on the Japanese language.
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The point of this is if someone tried to speak English in the US as poorly as I spoke Japanese in Japan the most likely response would be "This is America! Learn American or get out!" I don't understand that mentality. Odds are the person trying to speak English speaks it better than you could speak their native language. It drives me nuts! I wish Americans could be more accepting and encouraging like the Japanese.
Yup. Less rednecks with confederate flag stickers on their pickups in Japan, too.
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I want to learn Japanese. Even after having read this. (http://pepper.idge.net/japanese/) ;D
My work blocked the link as "Profanity". ???
I guess I'll just have to wait until I get home.
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I want to learn Japanese. Even after having read this. (http://pepper.idge.net/japanese/) ;D
My work blocked the link as "Profanity". ???
I guess I'll just have to wait until I get home.
Weird... there isn't even so much as a mention of a shitake (intentional misspelling) mushroom in there...
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Since someone did some threadromancy, I'll tell you about my current adventure. I have the first Harry Potter in German on the top of my TBR pile. I'm going to take a break from the Terry Pratchett and really try to improve my German. Wish me luck.
The trick with reading practice is finding good stuff to read. The reading passages in text books try to be interesting, but we all know how that works out. And after I spend an hour translating a single paragraph in a newspaper only to find out that the finance minister's plan to decrease steel import quotas a quarter of a percent will likely not be but up to a vote I want too burn myself alive.
But Harry Potter is a pretty big bite. It might be more encouraging to read short stories. Then you could tell your self how many stories you have actually finished rather than what depressingly small percentage of Harry Potter and The 900 Pages you have put behind you.
It's only the first book which is 300 pages. Also it's a fairly interesting book, but it's written for YA making it a bit easier. Lastly I've already read it, so I don't have to worry getting lost.
Dude, that's been on your pile for ages. Glad you're getting around to it. It was the first book I'd ever read in German as well, although I had deliberately not read the English ones in order to force myself to knuckle down and do it. I started by reading it out loud to my husband, but then got quick enough that it was faster to read it to myself.
I read the last HP in English because I didn't want to wait 6 months for the translation. It just wasn't the same :(
I had your hardcover, but I can't write in that. I picked up a paperback about 2 weeks ago.
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I wish Americans could be more accepting and encouraging like the Japanese.
Careful what you wish for. James Fallows, editor of The Atlantic Monthly, lived in Japan and wrote extensively about the experience. In one essay, he opines that the American race problem could be solved by forcing every Caucasian American to spend a few months in Japan every couple of years. He says that's because it's one of the few places a Caucasian American can go where the first thing people notice about them is race, and it's not good.
Also, the Koreans who have been living in Japan for serveral generations but still aren't considered "Japanese" might have a slightly different take on Japanese "acceptence."
My point isn't that the Japanese are somehow uniquely evil, but rather that just like Americans and pretty much all other humans, they practice their exclusions and draw their lines between "in" and "out" groups. They just express it a bit differently.
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I wish Americans could be more accepting and encouraging like the Japanese.
Careful what you wish for. James Fallows, editor of The Atlantic Monthly, lived in Japan and wrote extensively about the experience. In one essay, he opines that the American race problem could be solved by forcing every Caucasian American to spend a few months in Japan every couple of years. He says that's because it's one of the few places a Caucasian American can go where the first thing people notice about them is race, and it's not good.
Also, the Koreans who have been living in Japan for serveral generations but still aren't considered "Japanese" might have a slightly different take on Japanese "acceptence."
My point isn't that the Japanese are somehow uniquely evil, but rather that just like Americans and pretty much all other humans, they practice their exclusions and draw their lines between "in" and "out" groups. They just express it a bit differently.
I did notice that I was being watched very, very closely when in stores. We were in the sticks of Japan (about 2 hours from Takamatsu on the island of Shikoku), which may have had something to do with it. The friend I was visiting (who had lived there for a year) said they didn't see many, if any westerners, and were very distrustful. I saw the racism you are talking about first hand in an adult ed class my friend was teaching. There were a lot of older people in the class and the topic of Koreans and Chinese came up. One of the students said something in Japanese and everyone started laughing. My friend later told me was a pretty racist remark about the Koreans and Chinese. That night I also found out the topic of World War II is pretty taboo, especially with Gaijin. Awkward.... :-X
The main point I was trying to make was the encouragement about me speaking their language. Everyone was at least polite, and usually friendly. I realized after a couple of days I was saying "thank you very much for nothing" instead of "thank you very much" when I made a purchase. Nobody corrected me. They just bowed and smiled. There is a good chance someone making the same mistake with English in the US could get their ass kicked.
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To be fair, I don't *really* think an ass-kicking is likely to be visited upon your hypothetical foreigner in that store situation... but I've heard tales from "foreign looking" friends that would prevent me from ruling it out.
I do know that when the guy at Wendy's can't get my order right until I say "el pollo" and point to the children, though, that I'm into that surreal territory where I feel warm and fuzzy that I can communicate with him, even though most U.S.icans would be more likely to get upset and start sending money to Tom Tancredo (http://tancredo.house.gov/issue_details.aspx?IID=7) (link provided for information, not endorsement).
whew... that was a big sentence. Did I load that down with enough qualifiers and other weasel-words?
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But Harry Potter is a pretty big bite. It might be more encouraging to read short stories. Then you could tell your self how many stories you have actually finished rather than what depressingly small percentage of Harry Potter and The 900 Pages you have put behind you.
Reminds me that right now I'm reading a copy of Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age that I picked up in a used bookstore here in Taiwan. I'm guessing that the previous owner was a Taiwanese who tackled it as challenging English reading material. Each page has about a dozen difficult words underlined in pen, and I feel sorry for this unknown person because I doubt he (or she) was able to find "yuvree" or "phenomenoscope" in a dictionary. It's evidence of admirable resolve. I'm on page 188 and the underlining is still going strong!
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Whenever I would stammer out a few poorly composed syllables native speakers would always comment on how fantastic my Japanese was (which was obviously just being polite). I had to learn the phrase "thank you, but my Japanese is absolutely horrible", which only made them rave about my linguistic skills more and try to engage me in conversation, which I couldn't understand at all.
I lived in Seoul for two and a half years. I think I've learned to speak badly broken Korean rather well. :)
My theory (formulated in Korea, but I suspect it works in Japan too) is that the amount of praise you get from locals is inversely proportionate to your actual linguistic skills. When I had to repeat myself three times to get a storekeeper to understand me, they always complimented me on my marvelous Korean skills once they realized what I was saying.
But whenever I observed Westerners speaking fluent Korean to locals, they got treated very matter-of-factly, without all the "ooooh, you speak Korean very well!" praise.
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I lived in Seoul for two and a half years. I think I've learned to speak badly broken Korean rather well. :)
My theory (formulated in Korea, but I suspect it works in Japan too) is that the amount of praise you get from locals is inversely proportionate to your actual linguistic skills. When I had to repeat myself three times to get a storekeeper to understand me, they always complimented me on my marvelous Korean skills once they realized what I was saying.
But whenever I observed Westerners speaking fluent Korean to locals, they got treated very matter-of-factly, without all the "ooooh, you speak Korean very well!" praise.
I suspect that they're really saying "well done for trying!" and giving you encouragement to keep at it; and once you're actually fluent, that positive reinforcement is no longer needed.
Of course, this is just something I made up on the spur of the moment, so it's probably wrong ;)
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I lived in Seoul for two and a half years. I think I've learned to speak badly broken Korean rather well. :)
My theory (formulated in Korea, but I suspect it works in Japan too) is that the amount of praise you get from locals is inversely proportionate to your actual linguistic skills. When I had to repeat myself three times to get a storekeeper to understand me, they always complimented me on my marvelous Korean skills once they realized what I was saying.
But whenever I observed Westerners speaking fluent Korean to locals, they got treated very matter-of-factly, without all the "ooooh, you speak Korean very well!" praise.
I suspect that they're really saying "well done for trying!" and giving you encouragement to keep at it; and once you're actually fluent, that positive reinforcement is no longer needed.
Or maybe they're being sarcastic. They have sarcasm in Korea, right? (I recall Douglas Adams writing that they don't have it on Betelgeuse V.)
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Or maybe they're being sarcastic. They have sarcasm in Korea, right? (I recall Douglas Adams writing that they don't have it on Betelgeuse V.)
As Chodon speculated, I think it's just reflexive politeness. Korea's just as concerned with maintaining politeness as Japan. (Though it's often mostly about appearances.)
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I lived in Seoul for two and a half years. I think I've learned to speak badly broken Korean rather well. :)
My theory (formulated in Korea, but I suspect it works in Japan too) is that the amount of praise you get from locals is inversely proportionate to your actual linguistic skills. When I had to repeat myself three times to get a storekeeper to understand me, they always complimented me on my marvelous Korean skills once they realized what I was saying.
But whenever I observed Westerners speaking fluent Korean to locals, they got treated very matter-of-factly, without all the "ooooh, you speak Korean very well!" praise.
I suspect that they're really saying "well done for trying!" and giving you encouragement to keep at it; and once you're actually fluent, that positive reinforcement is no longer needed.
Of course, this is just something I made up on the spur of the moment, so it's probably wrong ;)
That sounds right to me. I was placed in a Korean class at DLI (http://www.dliflc.edu/), and we got the opposite treatment. We were "taught" the way actual students in Korea were taught... which generally meant no encouragement whatsoever. When we went on field trips to San Fransisco for "immersion practice", the shop keepers and restaurateurs would fall all over themselves with praise, but our actual teachers seemed to feel that it was our job to know the language, and they were supremely disappointed that we didn't, yet.
And that link out to the "Learning Japanese" (http://pepper.idge.net/japanese/) essay is dead on... especially about "context". We would ask what a particular word meant, and instead of telling us, they would scrawl Chinese on the board. "It comes from [insert unintelligible syllables], of course. And EVERYbody know what that mean!"
And THAT, my friends, is why I ended up learning Russian instead. :P
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I do know that when the guy at Wendy's can't get my order right until I say "el pollo" and point to the children, though, that I'm into that surreal territory where I feel warm and fuzzy that I can communicate with him, even though most U.S.icans would be more likely to get upset and start sending money to Tom Tancredo (http://tancredo.house.gov/issue_details.aspx?IID=7) (link provided for information, not endorsement).
I don't know who Tom is, but I have to admit that I do get frustrated when they put someone who can barely communicate in English trying to take my drive-thru order.
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I do know that when the guy at Wendy's can't get my order right until I say "el pollo" and point to the children, though, that I'm into that surreal territory where I feel warm and fuzzy that I can communicate with him, even though most U.S.icans would be more likely to get upset and start sending money to Tom Tancredo (http://tancredo.house.gov/issue_details.aspx?IID=7) (link provided for information, not endorsement).
I don't know who Tom is, but I have to admit that I do get frustrated when they put someone who can barely communicate in English trying to take my drive-thru order.
The immigration issue in American politics is a joke. It's yet another issue where the policitians make every effort to look like they're doing something about it, while actually doing nothing because many employers (e.g., farmers and ranchers) like being able to hire illegals for pennies a day with no benefits. That's all I have to say about Tom Tancredo and other congresscritters like him.
And I certainly agree with birdless about trying to transact business with people who can barely speak English. It pisses me off and is likely to drive my business elsewhere.
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I don't know who Tom is, but I have to admit that I do get frustrated when they put someone who can barely communicate in English trying to take my drive-thru order.
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And I certainly agree with birdless about trying to transact business with people who can barely speak English. It pisses me off and is likely to drive my business elsewhere.
Okay, so, if anyone wants to do a poll, here's the question:
Rank these scenarios in order of preference:
You are at the fast food counter. Yes, you went in; no, it doesn't have to be a particular chain. Your "service professional":
* ...quickly and efficiently rings up your order, serves exactly what you asked for with a smile and a flourish... but the prices are comparable to a sit-down restaurant.
* ...speaks English, but keeps talking to/texting their friends while they take your order... which they get wrong. (Go ahead and complain, they'll just roll their eyes and get their manager to comp the meal. Whatever.)
* ...speaks English, but it's hard to tell because they keep mumbling. And just how old ARE those plastic gloves, anyway...
* ...speaks heavily accented English, and doesn't get mad at you even though you keep saying "What?" everytime they ask what size you'd like.
* ...speaks... um, even I don't know. It might be French... it might be Bantu. But if you point to the numbered menu and make hand signs, they'll figure it out. And they'll even get the order right!
* ...slips you a copy of The Omnivore's Dilemma and cryptically whispers, "Get out while you still can! And go get a salad!"
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I do know that when the guy at Wendy's can't get my order right until I say "el pollo" and point to the children, though, that I'm into that surreal territory where I feel warm and fuzzy that I can communicate with him, even though most U.S.icans would be more likely to get upset and start sending money to Tom Tancredo (http://tancredo.house.gov/issue_details.aspx?IID=7) (link provided for information, not endorsement).
I don't know who Tom is, but I have to admit that I do get frustrated when they put someone who can barely communicate in English trying to take my drive-thru order.
Having a distinct British accent (a combination of Home Counties, South London, and a dash of Geordie, for those keeping count), while still speaking fluent English, I find that the quality of the microphones at fast food places is poor enough that I can't make myself understood easily.
And that's for a fairly clear accent. Most people have no problem understanding me face-to-face.
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I do know that when the guy at Wendy's can't get my order right until I say "el pollo" and point to the children, though, that I'm into that surreal territory where I feel warm and fuzzy that I can communicate with him, even though most U.S.icans would be more likely to get upset and start sending money to Tom Tancredo (http://tancredo.house.gov/issue_details.aspx?IID=7) (link provided for information, not endorsement).
I don't know who Tom is, but I have to admit that I do get frustrated when they put someone who can barely communicate in English trying to take my drive-thru order.
Having a distinct British accent (a combination of Home Counties, South London, and a dash of Geordie, for those keeping count), while still speaking fluent English, I find that the quality of the microphones at fast food places is poor enough that I can't make myself understood easily.
And that's for a fairly clear accent. Most people have no problem understanding me face-to-face.
I feel your pain, mate... 3 years in Sleaford, Lincs, and every time I spoke to anyone in a shop they looked at me as if I had just grown a new head.
"Hi, yes, I am Zaphod Beeblebrox. Can you tell me where to find shoe laces?"
"Wot, then, duck?"
"Shoe laces? The rope-like things that keep my shoes on my feet?"
(Intent stare, which gives way to dawning realization) "O, right... you'll want 'foot-tie-y-uppies'*, then. Aisle 5."
And don't even start me on the KFC in Lincoln.
*Actual phrase used by actual Sleaford shop keeper... I never went back. And no Briton has yet recognized that as an actual term for shoelaces.
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I do know that when the guy at Wendy's can't get my order right until I say "el pollo" and point to the children, though, that I'm into that surreal territory where I feel warm and fuzzy that I can communicate with him, even though most U.S.icans would be more likely to get upset and start sending money to Tom Tancredo (http://tancredo.house.gov/issue_details.aspx?IID=7) (link provided for information, not endorsement).
I don't know who Tom is, but I have to admit that I do get frustrated when they put someone who can barely communicate in English trying to take my drive-thru order.
Having a distinct British accent (a combination of Home Counties, South London, and a dash of Geordie, for those keeping count), while still speaking fluent English, I find that the quality of the microphones at fast food places is poor enough that I can't make myself understood easily.
And that's for a fairly clear accent. Most people have no problem understanding me face-to-face.
Hey, that sounds fascinating. I think a few people at work would love to use you as a guinea pig for their research. South London AND Geordie, I can't possibly imagine what that sounds like. Could you upload a recording? :o
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My Geordie is mostly just short A's in words like "bath" (rather than "barth"), these days ;)
Though I can do a passable reading of the Lampton Wurm (http://www.southshields-sanddancers.co.uk/lampton_worm.htm), when I put my mind to it, too.
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I wish Americans could be more accepting and encouraging like the Japanese.
Careful what you wish for. James Fallows, editor of The Atlantic Monthly, lived in Japan and wrote extensively about the experience. In one essay, he opines that the American race problem could be solved by forcing every Caucasian American to spend a few months in Japan every couple of years. He says that's because it's one of the few places a Caucasian American can go where the first thing people notice about them is race, and it's not good.
Also, the Koreans who have been living in Japan for serveral generations but still aren't considered "Japanese" might have a slightly different take on Japanese "acceptence."
My point isn't that the Japanese are somehow uniquely evil, but rather that just like Americans and pretty much all other humans, they practice their exclusions and draw their lines between "in" and "out" groups. They just express it a bit differently.
I would think a white person would also have their race noticed in Africa, China, India, the Middle East, and South America. And some places in the United States. I was one referred to as "that white niggah" in Times Square.
I think the lack of patience with foreigners in the US is due to the fact Americans base their judgments less on skin color than many other countries. If you see someone in a big city who is not white or speaks with an accent or doesn't speak English at all, it's not crazy to assume that they are an American citizen, and know how to play the American game. When they don't it's frustrating. In Asia anyone non-Asian is assumed to be an outsider and knows nothing about the local culture. Japanese people place a high value on harmony and hospitality. Any non Asian person must be a guest in the country, and is treated with politeness. This is a two edged katana. I could live here my whole life, become a Japanese citizen, and never be called a Japanese. My daughter, who has a Japanese mother, is called neither Japanese nor gaijin, but hafu (half). I think in general they have as my bigots as the US, they are just nicer and less open about it.
Also, I personally am finding that there is a critical mass of linguistic ability. Once you pass this point it's just assumed that you speak Japanese, and then the gloves come off.
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Whenever I would stammer out a few poorly composed syllables native speakers would always comment on how fantastic my Japanese was (which was obviously just being polite). I had to learn the phrase "thank you, but my Japanese is absolutely horrible", which only made them rave about my linguistic skills more and try to engage me in conversation, which I couldn't understand at all.
I lived in Seoul for two and a half years. I think I've learned to speak badly broken Korean rather well. :)
My theory (formulated in Korea, but I suspect it works in Japan too) is that the amount of praise you get from locals is inversely proportionate to your actual linguistic skills. When I had to repeat myself three times to get a storekeeper to understand me, they always complimented me on my marvelous Korean skills once they realized what I was saying.
But whenever I observed Westerners speaking fluent Korean to locals, they got treated very matter-of-factly, without all the "ooooh, you speak Korean very well!" praise.
When we were living in New York City my Japanese wife came home upset because someone complimented her English. "That must mean I still don't speak English well," she said.
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I wish Americans could be more accepting and encouraging like the Japanese.
I think the lack of patience with foreigners in the US is due to the fact Americans base their judgments less on skin color than many other countries.
Reality check for me here. I always thought the native English speaking people had more patience with foreigners, trying to express themselves in English with their funny accents and using some expressions in just the wrong way.
I thought they'd find me kinda cute, trying my best and sometimes getting a frase somewhat wrong, not really expressing what I thought I was saying and being accepted for those faults, because I'm foreign :)
I always think it's very very cute when foreigners try to speak Dutch, but then there aren't many foreigners who learn the language, they usually just expect us to speak English or German to them. And now that I think of it, I'd rather speak English to a non-native English speaker because then I don't have to mind my words so much, it's okay to make mistakes, because we both do and we both understand it can be hard to express your thoughts in a different language.
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I wish Americans could be more accepting and encouraging like the Japanese.
I think the lack of patience with foreigners in the US is due to the fact Americans base their judgments less on skin color than many other countries.
Reality check for me here. I always thought the native English speaking people had more patience with foreigners, trying to express themselves in English with their funny accents and using some expressions in just the wrong way.
I thought they'd find me kinda cute, trying my best and sometimes getting a frase somewhat wrong, not really expressing what I thought I was saying and being accepted for those faults, because I'm foreign :)
I always think it's very very cute when foreigners try to speak Dutch, but then there aren't many foreigners who learn the language, they usually just expect us to speak English or German to them. And now that I think of it, I'd rather speak English to a non-native English speaker because then I don't have to mind my words so much, it's okay to make mistakes, because we both do and we both understand it can be hard to express your thoughts in a different language.
I don't think European accents have the same negative reaction in the US as Asian or Hispanic (yes, I realize they speak Spanish in Spain and it's in Europe, but most Americans don't know that and don't care...the call Spanish "Mexican"). I think it comes from the whole illegal immigration BS going on right now in the US. It's not an absolute by any means, but I think Europeans would have an easier go of things while visiting the US than non-Europeans.
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I always think it's very very cute when foreigners try to speak Dutch, but then there aren't many foreigners who learn the language, they usually just expect us to speak English or German to them. And now that I think of it, I'd rather speak English to a non-native English speaker because then I don't have to mind my words so much, it's okay to make mistakes, because we both do and we both understand it can be hard to express your thoughts in a different language.
This is coincident with my experience when I have been in Europe. I ostensibly tried to practice my German, but anytime I got past the original interchange and it was discovered I was American, most German-speaking people I dealt with were eager to practice their English, and I only really got to practice my greetings and storekeeper exchanges. Though in Switzerland I was quite thankful for the quick to English switch, because that's HARD German to understand for a non-native speaker (I said "Langsamer, bitte!" frequently and kept checking in people's mouths for the marbles I was sure they were talking around). In the Netherlands people were highly tolerant of my talking German at them. In Italy I faked by with my deep knowledge of Argentine slang which is heavily Italian based, and didn't get into many in-depth conversations. Totally different story in France, of course. Nothing but French would do there (which I don't speak), and I got such attitude that I won't be going back. No croissant or Impressionist painting is worth that much grief.
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Totally different story in France, of course. Nothing but French would do there (which I don't speak), and I got such attitude that I won't be going back. No croissant or Impressionist painting is worth that much grief.
My favorite French-attitude-to-foreigners moment happened when, in 2006, I got off an Amsterdam-Paris train in Gare du Nord and walked over to the tourist information desk, trying to figure out what metro station the hotel I booked was at, only to discover that they would only respond to me in French (I'd be very surprised if either of the two people sitting there actually didn't know English. The impression I got was that they simply had no intention of using it). I ended up giving up and taking a taxi.
(To be fair, the next time I went to a tourist information desk in Paris I got a very helpful and straightforward response).
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This is coincident with my experience when I have been in Europe. I ostensibly tried to practice my German, but anytime I got past the original interchange and it was discovered I was American, most German-speaking people I dealt with were eager to practice their English, and I only really got to practice my greetings and storekeeper exchanges.
Hmm.. My experience with Germans in Holland is, that they refuse to speak English, they expect the Dutch to always speak German to them. (I know I'm generalizing here) It may be a size-thing: America is bigger than Germany (yep, it really is), so when Germans talk to Americans, they will speak their language. And when Germans come to Holland, they expect the same treatment from the smaller country...
But I do agree with you remark about practicing English, I love doing that to.
Though in Switzerland I was quite thankful for the quick to English switch, because that's HARD German to understand for a non-native speaker (I said "Langsamer, bitte!" frequently and kept checking in people's mouths for the marbles I was sure they were talking around).
Yeah, I have that to. Incomprehensible! I had the same feeling with one of the EP-stories lately: EP133 - Other People's Money, read by Amanda Fitzwater from New Zealand. My thought was exactly the same: English with marbles in her mouth. I couldn't get around them, so I had to stop listening.
Marbles, it's a hard thing to get around.
In the Netherlands people were highly tolerant of my talking German at them.
Funny! I thought most of the Dutch hated speaking German and they're talking German to an American? Maybe they just don't like talking to Germans.
Totally different story in France, of course. Nothing but French would do there (which I don't speak), and I got such attitude that I won't be going back. No croissant or Impressionist painting is worth that much grief.
In France they love French, that's true. They're very proud of their language and are not very tolerable about other influences (especially English). In France, most English movies and tv series are translated to French (whereas in Holland they use subtitles), so they really don't come into contact with English a lot. I must admit, the language is beautiful but the attitude can be rather difficult.
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Totally different story in France, of course. Nothing but French would do there (which I don't speak), and I got such attitude that I won't be going back. No croissant or Impressionist painting is worth that much grief.
In France they love French, that's true. They're very proud of their language and are not very tolerable about other influences (especially English). In France, most English movies and tv series are translated to French (whereas in Holland they use subtitles), so they really don't come into contact with English a lot. I must admit, the language is beautiful but the attitude can be rather difficult.
"Welcome to France. Now speak French." ;D
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"Welcome to France. Now speak French." ;D
"Welcome to France! .... Parlez Français maintenant." :D
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This is coincident with my experience when I have been in Europe. I ostensibly tried to practice my German, but anytime I got past the original interchange and it was discovered I was American, most German-speaking people I dealt with were eager to practice their English, and I only really got to practice my greetings and storekeeper exchanges.
Hmm.. My experience with Germans in Holland is, that they refuse to speak English, they expect the Dutch to always speak German to them. (I know I'm generalizing here) It may be a size-thing: America is bigger than Germany (yep, it really is), so when Germans talk to Americans, they will speak their language. And when Germans come to Holland, they expect the same treatment from the smaller country...
Sorry to hear your experience with us Germans is such a negative one, but I have to say I am surprised that Germans would expect you to speak German to them and I don't think it has anything to do with the size of the country. Germans would probably always speak English if they don't actually speak the language of the country in question. Maybe they are just making the (false) assumption you would understand German better than English, given that Dutch SOUNDS very similar to German (no offense, and don't get me wrong I am not trying to defend their behavior, even if it sounds like I am).
Though in Switzerland I was quite thankful for the quick to English switch, because that's HARD German to understand for a non-native speaker (I said "Langsamer, bitte!" frequently and kept checking in people's mouths for the marbles I was sure they were talking around).
Yeah, I have that to. Incomprehensible! I had the same feeling with one of the EP-stories lately: EP133 - Other People's Money, read by Amanda Fitzwater from New Zealand. My thought was exactly the same: English with marbles in her mouth. I couldn't get around them, so I had to stop listening.
Marbles, it's a hard thing to get around.
And for what it is worth, I am just as distracted by all the wonderful marbles as you guys are, and like myself a lot of native speakers of German won't understand 'Schwyzerdütsch', just to make that clear. Actually, come to think of it, quite a few German dialects are almost incomprehensible to me as well. A real Bavarian (from a small village, rathe rthan a bigger city) could just as well speak Finnish and I would probably understand just as much, and I am a native speaker of German.
In the Netherlands people were highly tolerant of my talking German at them.
Funny! I thought most of the Dutch hated speaking German and they're talking German to an American? Maybe they just don't like talking to Germans.
Yes, that sounds more like it. I believe, there is a strong anti-German attitude in the Netherlands. I read about German exchange students being systematically ostracized in a Dutch university (gotta find that article, will post a link if I do), ... but I am sure that cannot be overgeneralized. It might just have bene a one-off.
Totally different story in France, of course. Nothing but French would do there (which I don't speak), and I got such attitude that I won't be going back. No croissant or Impressionist painting is worth that much grief.
In France they love French, that's true. They're very proud of their language and are not very tolerable about other influences (especially English). In France, most English movies and tv series are translated to French (whereas in Holland they use subtitles), so they really don't come into contact with English a lot. I must admit, the language is beautiful but the attitude can be rather difficult.
In my experience the behavior towards foreigners is not very accommodating even if they speak French. Quite a few times people have been rather rude and impolite (... and that is me saying that, given that we Germans are pretty rude, impolite and cold people and of course the Dutch don't like us for good reasons ;)) despite the fact that I was speaking French, I guess my French was just not good enough.
But then again, I think the French are doing it right. Look at us stupid Germans (am speaking only of myself, of course), we keep speaking English as soon as someone seems to have an accent, no wonder nobody wants to learn German, people just don't see the necessity.
... and I still think impressionist paintings are worth the hassle, and croissants, come on for a good croissant I'll just ignore the attitude, put on a big smile and see how long it takes them until they stop frowning (works for me every time. ;D)
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Funny! I thought most of the Dutch hated speaking German and they're talking German to an American? Maybe they just don't like talking to Germans.
I think it might have been an attempt at camaraderie. A "Let's both find a language that neither one of us speaks natively and that way you won't be struggling on your own." Anyway, it seemed to be taken with grace. I guess no one actually mistook me for a German, just for someone trying not to be a clueless American.
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I would think a white person would also have their race noticed in Africa, China, India, the Middle East, and South America. And some places in the United States. I was one referred to as "that white niggah" in Times Square.
I can only speak directly to the question of race with regard to Africa, specifically southern Nigeria, where my parents were missionaries. Yes, the people that live there definitely do notice that you're white, but they generally treat you better in various subtle ways -- bettter service, more respectful, etc. -- because of it. Go figure...
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... and I still think impressionist paintings are worth the hassle, and croissants, come on for a good croissant I'll just ignore the attitude, put on a big smile and see how long it takes them until they stop frowning (works for me every time. ;D)
Well, to each his own, but I'll take an architecturally interesting cathedral (like Köln's, say) any day of the week over a Monet. And I'll take Italian ice cream over a croissant anytime, as well. Once I've crossed the big Atlantic, I have worn away some of my willingness to put up with bs, specially when plenty of places are more tourist accomodating than France. Though again, I don't begrudge you your enjoyment of said croissants.
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I have to say I find you Europeans takes on Americans refreshing. One thing I'm always paranoid about when traveling is being "the ugly American." Someone who is convinced they can make themselves understood if they only speak their English slower and louder. Someone who refuses to adapt to other countries customs. To be honest, I'm also a little paranoid about looking like a tourist even when traveling in the US given us Texans' reputation.
As for for my personal experience, I don't know anyone in Texas who can't speak at least a little Spanish. Last I saw we're like 45% Hispanic, many of whom speak Spanish as a first language. Even so, there are people who act offended when they have to use Spanish.
I don't think European accents have the same negative reaction in the US as Asian or Hispanic (yes, I realize they speak Spanish in Spain and it's in Europe, but most Americans don't know that and don't care...the call Spanish "Mexican"). I think it comes from the whole illegal immigration BS going on right now in the US. It's not an absolute by any means, but I think Europeans would have an easier go of things while visiting the US than non-Europeans.
This is certainly true for Spanish speakers in Texas, though I'd say it takes pretty broken English to provoke a negative reaction. Work any service-sector job in Austin and you'll run into several non-English speakers a day. In my personal experience, people are more likely to look down on people speaking AAE (ake ebonics) than people without any English.
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Speaking of France...
When we visited, we had no problems with language barriers; my wife tried to be our spokesperson, and she usually got the "Aw, aren't you cute..." reaction (maybe they thought we were Canadian).
The only foreigner to be rude to Americans on that trip was... well, a Brit.
I went to the dining car to get something for the baby, and there were 3 or 4 U.S. cheerleaders from a tour group. They were typically loud, excited, and unintentionally rude in the way that teen girls away from home tend to be, and the line wasn't moving while they tried to figure out what to order. Lot's of "Oh-muh-GAWD" and "Like, what's THAT word supposed to be?" And giggling.
The guy in front of me turned around and said something in French that I actually kinda understood... basically, "Why do we suffer because their country didn't want them?" I was so pleased I understood him, I laughed and made a remark (in English) about the irony of traveling all this way to get away from this sort of thing. He blanched, realizing immediately where I hailed from, and left the car... which was cool because I was next in line, then.
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Sorry to hear your experience with us Germans is such a negative one, but I have to say I am surprised that Germans would expect you to speak German to them and I don't think it has anything to do with the size of the country. Germans would probably always speak English if they don't actually speak the language of the country in question. Maybe they are just making the (false) assumption you would understand German better than English, given that Dutch SOUNDS very similar to German (no offense, and don't get me wrong I am not trying to defend their behavior, even if it sounds like I am).
Nice! I was hoping some Europeans would react :)
Really, I have nothing against Germans, I think it's just a complex we have. Holland knows it's a small country (maybe we're aware of it too much) and thus we falsely asume that people from that BIG country Germany want to force the language on us. I'll call it a inferiority complex.
German does sound a bit like Dutch, I think we could understand each other somewhat if we spoke in our native language. But it would be like the marble thing: some dialects are just too darn difficult to understand. Yeah, even here in Holland we have some incomprehensible ones, we use subtitles on tv when they speak :D (I always think that's an insult to them... When your being subtitled in your own language)
And me too, I'm not defending Dutch behavior, I'm merely trying to find an explanation without talking about soccer and such. I hate sports. (and don't get me started about that. The whole country is starting to be orange, cars with flags, hats... Well, you Europeans get my drift)
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I have to say I find you Europeans takes on Americans refreshing. One thing I'm always paranoid about when traveling is being "the ugly American."
I must admit... There are Americans who present themselves that way and then I think "You see, typical American". And even though those are not the majority of Americans I've met, I still have that idea of 'typical American', that's true. Kinda funny when I think of it. But that may also be another inferiority complex. Or my mind may be way too stuck on that term today... LOL, I think it's just me that has the inferiority complex and I'll put it on ANYTHING today.
To be honest, I'm also a little paranoid about looking like a tourist even when traveling in the US given us Texans' reputation.
We may have the same complex... Wanna talk about it? :P
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I know I should be quoting bits but there are too many to reference now.
Re: France
Hated Paris the first time I was there because it was stinky and dirty and I got followed down the street by a guy wanking. Really. Had it right out there for all to admire. Every time since that I've visited France I've really enjoyed it and I find the people no ruder than northern Germany. Plus the food IS to die for.
Re: being a tourist
Same here. There are places where you do not want to be known as Australian (London for one, anywhere along a Contiki tour route for another). Then I usually speak more German than English.
Re: Dutch/German
I actually never know which language I should speak to a Dutch colleague in, because he's fluent in all three. It usually ends up being Dinglish and he puts up with it.
I find I can get the gist of newspapers in Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, Afrikaans and Pennsylvania Dutch. Don't ask me to comprehend it spoken though.
Re: Difficult accents
In German, swiss and Plat and anything from around Dresden - forget it. Heavy Bayerisch and Swäbisch is also tough.
In English, I find the new zealand accent also takes me a moment to switch on. It's okay once I've got it.
Funny Aside re: difficult accents
My father was at a conference in the US a few years ago and the host could not for the life of him understand my father's question (dad's Aussie but with a mild accent, deep voice and slow and excellent enunciation). The host gave up on understanding and turned to the next question which was asked in a heavy Indian accent. And was immediately answered. Goes to show it's just what you're used to hearing, whether it's a foreign/non-native accent or not.
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Funny Aside re: difficult accents
My father was at a conference in the US a few years ago and the host could not for the life of him understand my father's question (dad's Aussie but with a mild accent, deep voice and slow and excellent enunciation). The host gave up on understanding and turned to the next question which was asked in a heavy Indian accent. And was immediately answered. Goes to show it's just what you're used to hearing, whether it's a foreign/non-native accent or not.
I went to Scotland back in the day and felt like I stepped into the movie Trainspotting. It didn't even seem like English at first. The Scots had a hard time understanding our midwest accents. After about 3 days I found myself totally understanding what people were saying though, even though they still had no idea what my family was trying to say.
It doesn't help that some places in Michigan have their own strange dialiect including "malk" instead of "milk" and "bagel" (spoken like bag-el instead of bay-gul). Don't get me started on the whole "soda vs. pop" debate! There are more, but since I hear them everyday I don't pay attention to them.
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I'll branch off of Wherethewild was.
France v. Paris:
I find Parisians to be far ruder than other french folk. Caveat: I was only in Paris and met the non-Parisians outside of France. The Parisians I met outside of France were worse than the ones I met in Paris.
Accents and acceptibility:
A big part of the acceptibility of accents comes from how they're being used. A cute, sweet, young woman trying very hard to be polite and who knows it's difficult for the other is treated far better than a big, ugly guy who just expects the other one to deal with it. Smiles help a lot and so does a sense of humor. Sometimes the person being talked to is just an asshole and then it doesn't matter what you do.
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I have a fondness for linguistic studies. Language fascinates me (albeit not enough for me to quit the day job and pile a few thousand pounds and gain a huge student debt to head off to university and study it in depth).
Alas I did a fair amount of travelling around Europe as a wee nipper, so I have a smattering of French, German and Italian at my beck and call. Worse, so do most Europeans, so many conversations took place in a combination of four languages rather than in a single one, which prevented improvement.
Italy was particularly fun for this, when Dad and I got chatting to the lady who ran an ice-cream shop, and we were having to switch languages mid-sentence when we hit a word we didn't know but had available to us in another language.
French is by far my best, although I'm hardly fluent in it.
I'm certainly making a concerted effort to learn Japanese, though. Study keeps the ole grey matter going, and because Japanese shares absolutely no linguistic roots with Latinate or Germanic languages, it should provide an actual challenge.
It's certainly not helped, though, when you go to Japan and everyone switches to English to be helpful, and you're trying to practice your Japanese :D
"Sumimasen. Ichiban chikai toire wa doku desu ka?"
"Just down there, on the left."
"... Thanks."
I concur with most prior statements about the French. They're fiercely posessive of their language, and although many French people have a good grasp of English, they'll simply refuse to speak it. I don't mind, since my French comprehension is good enough to get by in most situations, but I did get irritated once when I was attempting to buy a train ticket and I had a bad cold, so the butthole at the desk was pretending he couldn't understand me.
Strangely, that was in Brussells. But I figured him for French ;)
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I forgot one observation. (as if you couldn't tell by many of my posts that I just love to sit and watch people.) Many non-English-mother-tongue tourists speak English. Many of them believe that since they have learned English everyone everywhere should speak English. This leads to them leaving wakes of people behind them saying, "f***ing Americans", when these tourists were Bulgarian or something.
I was eating at a Chinese place (German with a Chinese accent is rough). While I was still waiting for my food, some North American (US, Canada, not sure) tried to place an order. There was some pointing and smiling, but the order was placed.
About ten customers later two (possibly Russian) women walked by me. When it was there turn, they ordered in quick, but heavily accented, English. The man didn't understand them, so they said it louder. After a minute or so they were almost shouting, and then finally started pointing.
When the women went to get there seat, the man said a German phrase that always pops up whenever the US military messes up here (one of the soldiers raping a girl or something like that). It translates as: Americans go home.
I think the majority of the Americans who travel to Europe try not to be the "Ugly American". The problem is, that now that a lot of other people can travel and English has become the international language, a lot of other nationalities can fill the vacuum and we get blamed.
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I think the majority of the Americans who travel to Europe try not to be the "Ugly American". The problem is, that now that a lot of other people can travel and English has become the international language, a lot of other nationalities can fill the vacuum and we get blamed.
I think it's very funny everybody here has about the same story: we try our very best to be a nice guy/girl in foreign countries and we keep being perceived as being rude, no matter how hard we try. Maybe it's just all in our heads. Different countries, slightly different approach to communication, and of course the different typifications we have of a typical American, German, Frenchman, you name it. It's hard to change someone's mental picture, especially if you talk to people for just a short time.
But then again, if we all start updating the mental pictures we have, this thread wouldn't be so interesting. So please keep those observations coming, because I'm having as much fun with them as Russell does :D
@Troo: I used to be so embarrassed by my parents when we were on holiday in Europe. They kept messing with the language: French, German, English, Dutch, Hands&Feet, anything to get the message across. But hey, when you want to say something, you take whatever word you can find to say it. And most of the time it works :) Also, most of the time it's easier to let the natives know you're NOT trying to be fluent in their language, because if they get a hint of that, they really start talking and there's no stopping them (as said before, French have that art really covered).
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@Troo: I used to be so embarrassed by my parents when we were on holiday in Europe. They kept messing with the language: French, German, English, Dutch, Hands&Feet, anything to get the message across. But hey, when you want to say something, you take whatever word you can find to say it. And most of the time it works :) Also, most of the time it's easier to let the natives know you're NOT trying to be fluent in their language, because if they get a hint of that, they really start talking and there's no stopping them (as said before, French have that art really covered).
My mother-in-law is Mexican. She speaks heavily-accented English but frequently slips into Spanish without warning.
Her oldest son speaks to her entirely in Spanish for clarity of communication. My wife, on the other hand, speaks to her in English with the occasional Spanish word dropped in. For example: "Steph just finished building your closet organizer, so you can put all your ropa in now." Or "Where did you put the white cosas that were by the door?"
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As an aside: If you want to learn a "western" language with western writing style (opposed to e.q. japanese and chinese) which has totally different structure than indo-european languages, you should try learning finnish. Short simpified introduction can be found here: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish-intro.html (http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish-intro.html).
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@Troo: I used to be so embarrassed by my parents when we were on holiday in Europe. They kept messing with the language: French, German, English, Dutch, Hands&Feet, anything to get the message across. But hey, when you want to say something, you take whatever word you can find to say it. And most of the time it works :) Also, most of the time it's easier to let the natives know you're NOT trying to be fluent in their language, because if they get a hint of that, they really start talking and there's no stopping them (as said before, French have that art really covered).
My mother-in-law is Mexican. She speaks heavily-accented English but frequently slips into Spanish without warning.
Her oldest son speaks to her entirely in Spanish for clarity of communication. My wife, on the other hand, speaks to her in English with the occasional Spanish word dropped in. For example: "Steph just finished building your closet organizer, so you can put all your ropa in now." Or "Where did you put the white cosas that were by the door?"
Funny. When my family visits Mexico we stay with my sister-in-law's family there. Her mother will occaisonally take us out on the town and translate for me (I need to learn the language, my wife and son know Spanish). She speaks very good English and a lot of the merchants think she's American and compliment her on her Spanish.
Hasta la bye bye!
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To be honest, I'm also a little paranoid about looking like a tourist even when traveling in the US given us Texans' reputation.
We may have the same complex... Wanna talk about it? :P
Texas has something like the opposite situation of Holland. Texas:US::US:World (or at least a lot of Texans would say so.) For a number of historical reasons, Texas has one of the most distinctive identities in the United States. That said, Texas is widely perceived as a little backwards (e.g. "You're from Texas? Do you have a horse?")
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As an aside: If you want to learn a "western" language with western writing style (opposed to e.q. japanese and chinese) which has totally different structure than indo-european languages, you should try learning finnish. Short simpified introduction can be found here: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish-intro.html (http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/finnish-intro.html).
Hmm. *Adds Finnish to the list*. Cheers :D
Speaking of embarrassing family in foreign countries, I had a devil of a time trying to get mumsy dearest to stop blowing her nose at the dinner table in Japan. Still, at least she didn't resort to leaving her chopsticks sticking up out of her rice at any point.
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To be honest, I'm also a little paranoid about looking like a tourist even when traveling in the US given us Texans' reputation.
We may have the same complex... Wanna talk about it? :P
Texas has something like the opposite situation of Holland. Texas:US::US:World (or at least a lot of Texans would say so.) For a number of historical reasons, Texas has one of the most distinctive identities in the United States. That said, Texas is widely perceived as a little backwards (e.g. "You're from Texas? Do you have a horse?")
which is odd because every time humans have gone to another planet and they have a problem who do they call? Houston.
Admittedly small sample size.
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The discussion on Americans getting blamed for the sins of others is interesting. I also wonder if something like this is happening: Americans who quietly go about their business can pass for Europeans. But the ones who are all rude and loud and pointy are "typical" Americans, even though many of the actual typical Americans are not even noticed. If TAD hadn't said anything, the guy on the train would have assumed he was French, and people came up to me speaking German when I was in Germany.
Not all white people in Japan are Americans, but most of them probably are (English teachers and military) So the Japanese see both the cool Americans and the goof balls. They base their judgment accordingly, and they don't end up with the "ugly American" stereotype. The Europeans on the other hand, get a disproportionally strong impression of the goof balls.
Though I am aware that the US Japan relationship is very deep and complex, and there are other forces at work here.
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The discussion on Americans getting blamed for the sins of others is interesting. I also wonder if something like this is happening: Americans who quietly go about their business can pass for Europeans. But the ones who are all rude and loud and pointy are "typical" Americans, even though many of the actual typical Americans are not even noticed. If TAD hadn't said anything, the guy on the train would have assumed he was French, and people came up to me speaking German when I was in Germany.
Not all white people in Japan are Americans, but most of them probably are (English teachers and military) So the Japanese see both the cool Americans and the goof balls. They base their judgment accordingly, and they don't end up with the "ugly American" stereotype. The Europeans on the other hand, get a disproportionally strong impression of the goof balls.
Though I am aware that the US Japan relationship is very deep and complex, and there are other forces at work here.
Yes, now that you mention it... that is a frustrating aspect of it. I read a lot of Russian press, and they constantly misrepresent us as a Giant Boogie Man nation, trying to take them over. Depending on the situation, they will use the terms "American", "the West", "NATO", and "the UN" interchangeably to refer to us, when those terms are clearly referring to completely unrelated entities.
(This kind of leads to another issue I find annoying, where everyone in the U.S. despises and mistrusts the UN as a sinister threat to our sovereignty while the rest of the world thinks of it as a sinister puppet of the U.S. bent on threatening their sovereignty!)
I once saw an interview done with a Russian recording artist who had a hit in the early post-Yeltsin years with a track called "Kill the Yankee"; in the interview, he reviled capitalism and talked about the need to "kill the Yankee within each of us, because it is that selfishness and greed that we need to kill." He was, of course, wearing a NY Yankee ballcap, Chicago Bulls jacket, Levi jeans, Nikes, and smoking Marlboros.
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I once saw an interview done with a Russian recording artist who had a hit in the early post-Yeltsin years with a track called "Kill the Yankee"; in the interview, he reviled capitalism and talked about the need to "kill the Yankee within each of us, because it is that selfishness and greed that we need to kill." He was, of course, wearing a NY Yankee ballcap, Chicago Bulls jacket, Levi jeans, Nikes, and smoking Marlboros.
We'll get our revenge when the Marlboros kill him.
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(This kind of leads to another issue I find annoying, where everyone in the U.S. despises and mistrusts the UN as a sinister threat to our sovereignty while the rest of the world thinks of it as a sinister puppet of the U.S. bent on threatening their sovereignty!)
Wow! Really?? That's tragically funny! So, I'm fairly UN ignorant... have they actually done anything constructive, then, since no one trusts them?
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Bear in mind, these opinions are only held by people who don't know what an ambassador actually does. At the level at which it actually operates, the UN is generally seen as a good clearinghouse for ideas, and a forum for negotiation. Their peacekeeping forces haven't actually stopped any wars (because they can't do anything that might be seen as "taking sides"), but the UN has been fairly effective in diffusing tensions, and thus preventing wars. They make it easy for ideas to travel across national borders, and have been very significant in pushing democracy and general human rights.
UNESCO, UNICEF and UNHRC do some excellent work. The WTO is somewhat more controversial. As is the WHO (but not The Who - Everyone loves Won't Get Fooled Again), believed by some... ummm... less mainstream commentators to be putting mind control drugs in the water so that everyone swears fealty to Ban-Ki Moon. And they probably turn you gay, too.
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(This kind of leads to another issue I find annoying, where everyone in the U.S. despises and mistrusts the UN as a sinister threat to our sovereignty while the rest of the world thinks of it as a sinister puppet of the U.S. bent on threatening their sovereignty!)
Furthermore, many evangelical Xtians in the USA believe that the UN will be the "one-world government" referred to in The Revelation of Saint John. Oh, and the Mark of the Beast will be a bar-code tattoo.
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(This kind of leads to another issue I find annoying, where everyone in the U.S. despises and mistrusts the UN as a sinister threat to our sovereignty while the rest of the world thinks of it as a sinister puppet of the U.S. bent on threatening their sovereignty!)
Furthermore, many evangelical Xtians in the USA believe that the UN will be the "one-world government" referred to in The Revelation of Saint John. Oh, and the Mark of the Beast will be a bar-code tattoo.
Yes, I can attest to this, as, regrettably, it's about the only thing I've "learned" about the UN. Though, to split hairs, it's not necessarily believed that the mark will be a "tatoo"... there's probably more on the side that it will be a chip, like the ones used in pets... just saying. ;)
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The best thing about the UN is, that no matter what two countries are saying officially about not talking to each other, their ambassadors can just "bump" into each other and get messages across. When the UN had all the leaders of the represented countries there (was it 1999 or 2000), Clinton had an "accidental" meet-up with Castro.
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Yes, I can attest to this, as, regrettably, it's about the only thing I've "learned" about the UN. Though, to split hairs, it's not necessarily believed that the mark will be a "tatoo"... there's probably more on the side that it will be a chip, like the ones used in pets... just saying. ;)
Those chips are currently called RFIDs. They're in a lot more than pets.
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Yes, I can attest to this, as, regrettably, it's about the only thing I've "learned" about the UN. Though, to split hairs, it's not necessarily believed that the mark will be a "tatoo"... there's probably more on the side that it will be a chip, like the ones used in pets... just saying. ;)
Those chips are currently called RFIDs. They're in a lot more than pets.
In fact, US passports require RFID chips in them and some fear they could be used as triggers for IEDs targeting US citizens. Not quite the mark of the beast, but still scary.
http://news.cnet.com/Researchers-E-passports-pose-security-risk/2100-7349_3-6102608.html (http://news.cnet.com/Researchers-E-passports-pose-security-risk/2100-7349_3-6102608.html)
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Yes, I can attest to this, as, regrettably, it's about the only thing I've "learned" about the UN. Though, to split hairs, it's not necessarily believed that the mark will be a "tatoo"... there's probably more on the side that it will be a chip, like the ones used in pets... just saying. ;)
Those chips are currently called RFIDs. They're in a lot more than pets.
In fact, US passports require RFID chips in them and some fear they could be used as triggers for IEDs targeting US citizens. Not quite the mark of the beast, but still scary.
http://news.cnet.com/Researchers-E-passports-pose-security-risk/2100-7349_3-6102608.html (http://news.cnet.com/Researchers-E-passports-pose-security-risk/2100-7349_3-6102608.html)
The RFIDs got delayed in the passports. I hadn't heard if they started using them yet or not. I hope not. I pick up my boy's new one this week.
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Yes, I can attest to this, as, regrettably, it's about the only thing I've "learned" about the UN. Though, to split hairs, it's not necessarily believed that the mark will be a "tatoo"... there's probably more on the side that it will be a chip, like the ones used in pets... just saying. ;)
Those chips are currently called RFIDs. They're in a lot more than pets.
In fact, US passports require RFID chips in them and some fear they could be used as triggers for IEDs targeting US citizens. Not quite the mark of the beast, but still scary.
http://news.cnet.com/Researchers-E-passports-pose-security-risk/2100-7349_3-6102608.html (http://news.cnet.com/Researchers-E-passports-pose-security-risk/2100-7349_3-6102608.html)
RFID is a very weak signal. You'd basically have to get within a couple of feet to read it; a lot closer with a DIY hack job. And distinguishing between a US passport and some other RFID'd passport (like my new British one, or Pakistani or Malaysian passports) would be in interesting cryptographical challenge.
According to the article you link to, the RFID chip can't be detected at all unless the passport is at least slightly open, and "the actual data on the chip can't be read"; "it may be possible to determine the nationality of a passport holder by 'fingerprinting' the characteristics of the RFID chip". But it doesn't sound like anyone's very confident that this is going to happen any time soon. And, if you're worried about it, just keep your passport closed. Or, for the truely paranoid, get one of the many faraday cages (http://www.rfid-shield.com/) made especially for passports.
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Yes, I can attest to this, as, regrettably, it's about the only thing I've "learned" about the UN. Though, to split hairs, it's not necessarily believed that the mark will be a "tatoo"... there's probably more on the side that it will be a chip, like the ones used in pets... just saying. ;)
Those chips are currently called RFIDs. They're in a lot more than pets.
In fact, US passports require RFID chips in them and some fear they could be used as triggers for IEDs targeting US citizens. Not quite the mark of the beast, but still scary.
http://news.cnet.com/Researchers-E-passports-pose-security-risk/2100-7349_3-6102608.html (http://news.cnet.com/Researchers-E-passports-pose-security-risk/2100-7349_3-6102608.html)
RFID is a very weak signal. You'd basically have to get within a couple of feet to read it; a lot closer with a DIY hack job. And distinguishing between a US passport and some other RFID'd passport (like my new British one, or Pakistani or Malaysian passports) would be in interesting cryptographical challenge.
According to the article you link to, the RFID chip can't be detected at all unless the passport is at least slightly open, and "the actual data on the chip can't be read"; "it may be possible to determine the nationality of a passport holder by 'fingerprinting' the characteristics of the RFID chip". But it doesn't sound like anyone's very confident that this is going to happen any time soon. And, if you're worried about it, just keep your passport closed. Or, for the truely paranoid, get one of the many faraday cages (http://www.rfid-shield.com/) made especially for passports.
First, if there is a way to do it, someone will figure it out. How would the RFID tag know if the passport were open or not? Plus, I would imagine a terrorist wouldn't need to pick up a signal from too far away. Devices in trash cans or backpacks are a pretty common means of terrorist attack. Being within a few feet of an explosive device is a very lethal range. I'm not saying it would be easy, but it is possible (as the article says).
I am lucky enough to have a passport issued before the introduction of the RFID tag (at least for the next 8 years or so). My concern is that it adds zero security to the passport (as evidenced by the referenced article) and it does pose a security risk. I'm not nearly as worried about my information being copied (since I have an RFID credit card) as I am about it being used as a remote means of identification.
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First, if there is a way to do it, someone will figure it out. How would the RFID tag know if the passport were open or not?
There are several ways I can come up with, and I don't know anything about the actual implementation. For example, the passport's cover could be lined with something that blocks the signal, so that only if it is open the tag can be read.
Plus, I would imagine a terrorist wouldn't need to pick up a signal from too far away. Devices in trash cans or backpacks are a pretty common means of terrorist attack. Being within a few feet of an explosive device is a very lethal range. I'm not saying it would be easy, but it is possible (as the article says).
That's not so much a terror risk, but more a risk for targetted assassinations. Terrorists, by definition, try to cause mass destruction. And they usually don't care how much collateral damage they cause. I can't see how RFID tags would help them do anything they can't achieve as well by bombing a crowded area. Political assassinations are another matter. But most of us have nothing to fear from that.
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First, if there is a way to do it, someone will figure it out.
Yeah, that's the point behind peer-reviewed cryptography. We know how many decades of computer time (assuming you could dedicate every computer on the planet to the task) it would take to crack the encryption on your average credit card, and it's not a small number. I don't know what algorithms the passport RFID uses, but I'd be surprised if it's weaker than banks use.
How would the RFID tag know if the passport were open or not?
Well, it wouldn't. But the covers are radio-opaque enough that the weak signals can't be picked up when it's closed.
I'm not saying it would be easy, but it is possible (as the article says).
No, the article says it might, conceivably be possible at some time in the future. Maybe. And maybe we'll also figure out FTL travel.
I am lucky enough to have a passport issued before the introduction of the RFID tag (at least for the next 8 years or so). My concern is that it adds zero security to the passport (as evidenced by the referenced article) and it does pose a security risk.
It's not meant to add security. It's meant to add convenience. If the customs desk has all your information on screen even before you hand them your passport, they can shave a few seconds off the processing time. And when there are 500 people in the queue in front of you, that all adds up to you managing to catch your connecting flight.
I'm not nearly as worried about my information being copied (since I have an RFID credit card) as I am about it being used as a remote means of identification.
A bluetooth phone is a far better way of identifying people remotely. Even if it's not actively seeking.
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Actually, it occurs to me that the GSM signal that your phone uses to connect to the network is far better than bluetooth for identifying people. It's on all the time, and is strong enough to be read from several miles away. It sends a unique signal that exactly identifies your phone (and therefore, you) that's easy to crack because the information isn't considered particularly sensitive (if you want a truly private encrypted secure phone, you can pay for it, but most people don't think it's worth the thousands a month it costs). If you know someone's Subscriber Identity Number, say, by reading it off their phone when they're not looking, you can tell when they're moderately close, tuning the range with the power of your receiver. If you don't care about individuals and only want to get someone from a specific country, you just need to find a phone that cries out "I am looking for an AT&T Network!" Hell, if your target nation is America, you don't need to do any kind of reading at all, and just look for phones that broadcast on 850MHz or 1900MHz!
And while people are probably going to go to significant lengths to radioshield their passports, a radioshielded phone is... an electronic address book.
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Yes, I can attest to this, as, regrettably, it's about the only thing I've "learned" about the UN. Though, to split hairs, it's not necessarily believed that the mark will be a "tatoo"... there's probably more on the side that it will be a chip, like the ones used in pets... just saying. ;)
Those chips are currently called RFIDs. They're in a lot more than pets.
In fact, US passports require RFID chips in them and some fear they could be used as triggers for IEDs targeting US citizens. Not quite the mark of the beast, but still scary.
http://news.cnet.com/Researchers-E-passports-pose-security-risk/2100-7349_3-6102608.html (http://news.cnet.com/Researchers-E-passports-pose-security-risk/2100-7349_3-6102608.html)
The RFIDs got delayed in the passports. I hadn't heard if they started using them yet or not. I hope not. I pick up my boy's new one this week.
I'm looking at my boy's new passport. On the last page it says, "This document contains sensitive electronics." I can actually see the rather thick shielding in the covers. From what I have read and seen of RFID and having looked at this, I'm going to say the only way this could be used to ID someone would be if there was a reader built into a doorway. For me it's all totally irrelevant anyway. All the "terrorists"* would have to do is wait for me to yell to one of my kids.
A more serious point about the new passports is the extreme arrogance of design. My passport has a motif of state emblems on each page. Each state gets represnted once or twice and it's just saying, "look at all the different states we have." This new one has images of things like the Statue of Liberty and cowboys herding longhorns. Across the top of each page is some quote about how great America is. Do we really need propaganda inside our own passports?.
Added: I need to take my dog in for her shots soon. I'll see if the reader at the vets can get a signal.
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No, the article says it might, conceivably be possible at some time in the future. Maybe. And maybe we'll also figure out FTL travel.
The article says:
It may be possible to determine the nationality of a passport holder by "fingerprinting" the characteristics of the RFID chip, Mahaffey said. "Taken to an extreme, this could make it possible to craft explosives that detonate only when someone from the U.S. is nearby," he said. At Black Hat, Mahaffey showed a video that simulates just that.
This is not on par with faster than light travel. Researchers say this represents a "real threat of targeted attack". link to video (http://news.cnet.com/1606-2_3-6103315.html)
I am lucky enough to have a passport issued before the introduction of the RFID tag (at least for the next 8 years or so). My concern is that it adds zero security to the passport (as evidenced by the referenced article) and it does pose a security risk.
It's not meant to add security. It's meant to add convenience. If the customs desk has all your information on screen even before you hand them your passport, they can shave a few seconds off the processing time. And when there are 500 people in the queue in front of you, that all adds up to you managing to catch your connecting flight.
Actually, this (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,123246-page,1/article.html) article says the main reason the state department cites for the new passports is "enhanced security".
I'm not nearly as worried about my information being copied (since I have an RFID credit card) as I am about it being used as a remote means of identification.
A bluetooth phone is a far better way of identifying people remotely. Even if it's not actively seeking.
A bluetooth phone doesn't have a national identification. The whole concern is it would allow targeting of individuals with certain citizenship. For some terrorist groups the whole plan is to kill US citizens, not just random damage. This technology could potentially allow this kind of targeting.
If you feel comfortable with this kind of risk saving you a few seconds in line at the airport, fine. I don't think it's worth the risk.
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A bluetooth phone doesn't have a national identification. The whole concern is it would allow targeting of individuals with certain citizenship. For some terrorist groups the whole plan is to kill US citizens, not just random damage. This technology could potentially allow this kind of targeting.
If you feel comfortable with this kind of risk saving you a few seconds in line at the airport, fine. I don't think it's worth the risk.
I find all this talk about terrorists to be absolutely off-target (changed from nastier ways of saying it). More Americans get killed crossing the street each day than get killed in a year by terrorists. If my big threat was terrorists, I'd be the happiest person in the world. Going from the Newark airport to my parents place in PA has a far greater threat rating than I'd find from terrorists anywhere except maybe an Israeli-Palestinian border crossing point.
Hell even in 2001, as an American, you were more than ten times more likely to comit suicide than you were to get killed by a terrorist.
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Across the top of each page is some quote about how great America is. Do we really need propaganda inside our own passports?.
Clearly. I mean, you must've forgotten how awesome America is if you want to go outside it, and what other purpose does a passport serve than to let you leave America? :D
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No, the article says it might, conceivably be possible at some time in the future. Maybe. And maybe we'll also figure out FTL travel.
The article says:
It may be possible to determine the nationality of a passport holder by "fingerprinting" the characteristics of the RFID chip, Mahaffey said. "Taken to an extreme, this could make it possible to craft explosives that detonate only when someone from the U.S. is nearby," he said. At Black Hat, Mahaffey showed a video that simulates just that.
This is not on par with faster than light travel. Researchers say this represents a "real threat of targeted attack". link to video (http://news.cnet.com/1606-2_3-6103315.html)
No, really. They say it may be possible to break the encryption on these things, if we assume that every cryptographer since Alan Turing was a blithering moron compared to the guys working for the terrorists. And then, if we take that assumption to the extreme, then maybe they'll be able to pull sensitive data out of it! And here's a video of a simulation of what that might look like, if it was possible! You do know what "simulation" means, right?
Suggesting that a mature, trusted, open cryptographic system could possibly be broken in less than a hundred years, even with every computer on Earth dedicated to the task, is pretty much exactly like saying we might figure out FTL. Suggesting that someone working in secret could do it on the kind of hardware that you can find outside of the CIA or MIT is more like claiming it it's possible you could build an FTL craft out of an TV and an egg whisk.
The crypto I have on my computer is, to all intents and purposes, literally unbreakable. I'm betting that the ICAO has recommended cryptogaphy for biometric passports that's at least as good as you can get off the shelf at Best Buy.
Actually, this article says the main reason the state department cites for the new passports is "enhanced security".
It will, in theory, make it harder to fake a passport, because the encrypted data will be impossible to change, but it'll still pass a visual inspection, and anything more thorough than that would get caught when the passport number is checked against the master database, anyway. I think most good fake passports are basically real passports, officially issued with fake data. The US government currently justifies everything with "security", and I don't think that proves that security is actually the reason they do anything.
Oh, and that article also points out that the RFID chip has a broadcast range in "inches", not feet. Because it needs to pick up power from the reader.
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A more serious point about the new passports is the extreme arrogance of design. My passport has a motif of state emblems on each page. Each state gets represnted once or twice and it's just saying, "look at all the different states we have." This new one has images of things like the Statue of Liberty and cowboys herding longhorns. Across the top of each page is some quote about how great America is. Do we really need propaganda inside our own passports?
My passport has pictures of birds in it. They make me smile when I see them.
But, yeah. One of the things about America that frightens me is the fact that they've replaced patriotism with jingoism. Cats lying with dogs, I tell you.
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Effe terug naar het onderwerp...
I mean... I'm gonna talk foreign language again if that's okay!
Speaking of embarrassing family in foreign countries, I had a devil of a time trying to get mumsy dearest to stop blowing her nose at the dinner table in Japan. Still, at least she didn't resort to leaving her chopsticks sticking up out of her rice at any point.
Help me out here, I really feel like a stupid foreigner now... I've never been to Japan and I'm unaware of the nose and chopstick customs, so tell me!
I know there was some country where it's rude when you don't burp aloud after dinner but I don't know which country. And I wonder if they think it's rude when you burp _without_ dinner. Or is that okay, unless you have your chopsticks in hand
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A bluetooth phone doesn't have a national identification. The whole concern is it would allow targeting of individuals with certain citizenship. For some terrorist groups the whole plan is to kill US citizens, not just random damage. This technology could potentially allow this kind of targeting.
If you feel comfortable with this kind of risk saving you a few seconds in line at the airport, fine. I don't think it's worth the risk.
I find all this talk about terrorists to be absolutely off-target (changed from nastier ways of saying it). More Americans get killed crossing the street each day than get killed in a year by terrorists. If my big threat was terrorists, I'd be the happiest person in the world. Going from the Newark airport to my parents place in PA has a far greater threat rating than I'd find from terrorists anywhere except maybe an Israeli-Palestinian border crossing point.
Hell even in 2001, as an American, you were more than ten times more likely to comit suicide than you were to get killed by a terrorist.
The statistics agree with you, but a guy sitting two desks down from me had his son blown to pieces in the Cairo bombings of 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_2005_terrorist_attacks_in_Cairo). It's all statistics and news stories happening to someone else until it hits someone you know.
Is fear of being blown up going to keep me from going out of the country? No. I don't stay up at night worrying about this stuff. I have tickets to go to Ireland and Northern Ireland this summer, and I'm not going to worry about terrorism while I'm there. I just think RFID tags in passports is a bad idea, and there are a lot of security experts (which I don't believe any of you are, and I am sure as hell not so I'll defer to them) who agree.
I will restate my point: the risks of having an RFID tag in a passport DO NOT outweigh the benefits (saving a few seconds in line, as Wintermute pointed out).
zZzacha is right, I have derailed this thread with RFID talk (sorry), and I think I have clearly expressed my thoughts on the subject. They are what they are...
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The statistics agree with you, but a guy sitting two desks down from me had his son blown to pieces in the Cairo bombings of 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_2005_terrorist_attacks_in_Cairo). It's all statistics and news stories happening to someone else until it hits someone you know.
For the record, in 1996, I was within 200 yards of a pretty serious terrorist bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Docklands_bombing).
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I find all this talk about terrorists to be absolutely off-target (changed from nastier ways of saying it). More Americans get killed crossing the street each day than get killed in a year by terrorists. If my big threat was terrorists, I'd be the happiest person in the world. Going from the Newark airport to my parents place in PA has a far greater threat rating than I'd find from terrorists anywhere except maybe an Israeli-Palestinian border crossing point.
Hell even in 2001, as an American, you were more than ten times more likely to comit suicide than you were to get killed by a terrorist.
I absolutely agree with Nash on this. Even on the afternoon of September 11, 2001, I was almost completely unconcerned about the "threat" that "terrorists" posed to my life and my way of life. I was much more concerned with what my own government might do as a response.
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Help me out here, I really feel like a stupid foreigner now... I've never been to Japan and I'm unaware of the nose and chopstick customs, so tell me!
I'm not sure about the nose thing (but in some culture that's pretty rude in American culture because of the whole sanitation issue that arises). As for the chopsticks in the rice, from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cuisine):
Chopsticks are never left sticking vertically into rice, as this resembles incense sticks (which are usually placed vertically in sand) during offerings to the dead. Using chopsticks to spear food, to point, or especially to pass food into someone else's chopsticks is also frowned upon. It is also very bad manners to bite on your chopsticks.
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Chopsticks are never left sticking vertically into rice, as this resembles incense sticks (which are usually placed vertically in sand) during offerings to the dead. Using chopsticks to spear food, to point, or especially to pass food into someone else's chopsticks is also frowned upon. It is also very bad manners to bite on your chopsticks.
I thought there was also a ritual of putting out a bowl of rice for the dead at a funeral dinner, with the chopsticks sticking straight up. And the first time I heard that it's "rude" in Japan to have your chopsticks sticking straight up out of your rice, it was explained further: "only dead people do this."
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Chopsticks are never left sticking vertically into rice, as this resembles incense sticks (which are usually placed vertically in sand) during offerings to the dead. Using chopsticks to spear food, to point, or especially to pass food into someone else's chopsticks is also frowned upon. It is also very bad manners to bite on your chopsticks.
I thought there was also a ritual of putting out a bowl of rice for the dead at a funeral dinner, with the chopsticks sticking straight up. And the first time I heard that it's "rude" in Japan to have your chopsticks sticking straight up out of your rice, it was explained further: "only dead people do this."
I've heard the same thing, but this was the only thing I could find citation for. :-\
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And the first time I heard that it's "rude" in Japan to have your chopsticks sticking straight up out of your rice, it was explained further: "only dead people do this."
Sounds like Japanese funerals can be quite scary... Dead people sticking chopsticks in your rice.
Or do they mean: "Man, someone is going to KILL you if you do that." ;)
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But, yeah. One of the things about America that frightens me is the fact that they've replaced patriotism with jingoism. Cats lying with dogs, I tell you.
You can reference a majority group who do this on a frequent, consistent basis? To be honest, I'm not sure if I mean this question as a challenge or whether I mean this as a genuine request for information. For myself, what you said hasn't been the case in my realm of experience. I guess I have my doubts that you really experience this, as well, but I'm willing to accept that I may be sheltered.
Or by "America" you could simply mean the current leader who represents America to the world... if that's what you mean, then I withdraw the question.
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Help me out here, I really feel like a stupid foreigner now... I've never been to Japan and I'm unaware of the nose and chopstick customs, so tell me!
Well the nose-blowing's nothing exciting. It's just considered rude, particularly at the dinner table.
Chopsticks, however... *shudder* There's a full list of rules about using chopsticks, many of which are there to prevent conjuring up images of similar practices at funerals (where the ashes of the deceased would be picked through for bone fragments, using metal... chopsticks).
Here's a list, but it's not complete: http://www.culturalsavvy.com/chopsticks.htm
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You can reference a majority group who do this on a frequent, consistent basis?
Fox news.
I think I agree with Birdless' point about lumping "Americans" into one huge group though. I think a big part of what this forum is about (and this thread in paticular) is breaking down some of those generalizations, which wintermute's original post about Americans being Jingoist did.
I am an American, and I am not a Jingoist. I am, however, a patriot...so there goes that theory.
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But, yeah. One of the things about America that frightens me is the fact that they've replaced patriotism with jingoism. Cats lying with dogs, I tell you.
You can reference a majority group who do this on a frequent, consistent basis? To be honest, I'm not sure if I mean this question as a challenge or whether I mean this as a genuine request for information. For myself, what you said hasn't been the case in my realm of experience. I guess I have my doubts that you really experience this, as well, but I'm willing to accept that I may be sheltered.
Or by "America" you could simply mean the current leader who represents America to the world... if that's what you mean, then I withdraw the question.
Talk radio, Fox News, quite a few country music stars ...
I don't feel like researching this at the moment, but I'd bet that quite a few public opinion polls suggest that a significant portion of Americans feel that criticizing the country is unpatriotic. (Of course, it would all depend on how the question was phrased.) I certainly get the impression from media that love of country is seen as an unqualified good. Look at the controversy over Obama wearing a flag pin or not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem. When symbolic acts of loyalty are issues in a campaign, I think it's fair to accuse some of jingoism.
On the other hand, this is nothing new. Look at the attitude towards pacifists in WW1. Look at the flack the Jehovah Witnesses took back in the Thirties and Forties when they refused to say the pledge of allegiance. Or loyalty oathshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_oath#Truman_era (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_oath#Truman_era). Or the dismissal of Vietnam protesters as Un-American.
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No, you're right. I didn't mean all Americans, and I'm sorry if it sounded like I did. Southern Ohio seems to be a fairly (but certainly not exclusively) right-wing area, and it's not uncommon for me to encounter people who are quite willing to point out that America is the Best Country On Earth, and that They Should Kick Out The Foreigners, or that people who don't approve of us invading Iran, Iraq and anywhere else thery think of Hate America And Want The Terrorists To Win.
But really, Exhibit A is The Zuve Spirit MP3 player (http://www.zvueproducts.com/start/products/Spirit/index.html).
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But really, Exhibit A is The Zuve Spirit MP3 player (http://www.zvueproducts.com/start/products/Spirit/index.html).
Wow ... it even comes preloaded with fifteen shitkickin' tunes.
I wouldn't be surprised if the first hundred orders also get a blowjob from Ann Coulter thrown in for free ... or at least an autographed nude picture. ::)
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But, yeah. One of the things about America that frightens me is the fact that they've replaced patriotism with jingoism. Cats lying with dogs, I tell you.
You can reference a majority group who do this on a frequent, consistent basis? To be honest, I'm not sure if I mean this question as a challenge or whether I mean this as a genuine request for information. For myself, what you said hasn't been the case in my realm of experience. I guess I have my doubts that you really experience this, as well, but I'm willing to accept that I may be sheltered.
Or by "America" you could simply mean the current leader who represents America to the world... if that's what you mean, then I withdraw the question.
Talk radio, Fox News, quite a few country music stars ...
I don't feel like researching this at the moment, but I'd bet that quite a few public opinion polls suggest that a significant portion of Americans feel that criticizing the country is unpatriotic. (Of course, it would all depend on how the question was phrased.) I certainly get the impression from media that love of country is seen as an unqualified good. Look at the controversy over Obama wearing a flag pin or not putting his hand on his heart during the national anthem. When symbolic acts of loyalty are issues in a campaign, I think it's fair to accuse some of jingoism.
On the other hand, this is nothing new. Look at the attitude towards pacifists in WW1. Look at the flack the Jehovah Witnesses took back in the Thirties and Forties when they refused to say the pledge of allegiance. Or loyalty oathshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_oath#Truman_era (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_oath#Truman_era). Or the dismissal of Vietnam protesters as Un-American.
There's a big difference in jingoism and patriotism, and the feeling that "criticizing ones own country is unpatriotic" isn't jingoistic, as I understand jingoism. Misguided, certainly, but it seems a bit extreme to call that jingoistic... again, as I understand the definition. What bothers me is that the backlash against jingoism seems to have completely encompassed patriotism, as well. It's like being proud of your country is a sin, now. "Love of country" does not equal "no criticisms of country." Sorry, I'm just ranting, so I'll stop. And it's off-topic. But one of the reasons I'm not deleting/editing this post is because I want to make sure that I'm not off in my definition of jingoism. So, with apologies to the thread-starter, I'm asking for your 2¢. <edit> AND to find out why patriotism is so "wrong."
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Oscar Wilde described patriotism as "the virtue of the vicious" (or so Sean Connery tells me), but I have to disagree with that. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your country; indeed, I'm pretty sure it's a good, on balance. But when you get into the position that everything America does is good, and anyone suggesting that any kind of change is desirable should just go and live in Communist Russia, then you're hip-deep in some very scary jingoist territory.
This certainly isn't a universal position, and I don't even know if it's a majority one. But it's a very noticeable position; possibly because it gets a lot of airtime in right-wing media outlets, or possibly because it grates on mt so much that I can't help but be aware of it when I experience it.
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There's a big difference in jingoism and patriotism, and the feeling that "criticizing ones own country is unpatriotic" isn't jingoistic, as I understand jingoism. Misguided, certainly, but it seems a bit extreme to call that jingoistic... again, as I understand the definition. What bothers me is that the backlash against jingoism seems to have completely encompassed patriotism, as well. It's like being proud of your country is a sin, now. "Love of country" does not equal "no criticisms of country." Sorry, I'm just ranting, so I'll stop. And it's off-topic. But one of the reasons I'm not deleting/editing this post is because I want to make sure that I'm not off in my definition of jingoism. So, with apologies to the thread-starter, I'm asking for your 2¢. <edit> AND to find out why patriotism is so "wrong."
Well, if you go by strict dictionary definition then you're right, simply because Jingoism is about foreign policy, and does not apply to internal politics. So, Americans telling other Americans how they should act is not jingoistic in the narrow sense of the word.
But most people use "jingoism" in a way that also contains being aggressive against percieved internal threats as well as extrnal threats, and "if you criticize this country you are a traitor" is one aspect of that. So, in the way I understand it, qwints is giving proper examples of (a type of) Jingoism. Wintermute, however, does seem to be using the term somewhat incorrectly to mean "blind nationalistic chauvanism". That said, I think Wintermute's points hold, even though his vocabulary choices may be imprecise.
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Cool. Thanks for clearing up the colloquial meaning for me. It's not a word I've ever really used, nor do I come across it's use very often, so I could only go to the dictionary definition from whenever the first time I ever looked it up. :)
<edit> I like the term "nationalistic chauvinism." It covers areas that patriotism and jingoism miss. (grrr... I keep typing jinogism!)
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There's nothing wrong with being proud of your country; indeed, I'm pretty sure it's a good, on balance. But when you get into the position that everything America does is good, and anyone suggesting that any kind of change is desirable should just go and live in Communist Russia,
This really hits the point. Five years ago if were against the direction the country was heading in you were unpatriotic. It's funny that exercising our first amendment right was considered anti-American.
This is one of my email signatures. I think it's fitting:
To announce that there must be no criticism of the president ... right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
--Theodore Roosevelt, 1918
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That's the sad thing, really. I mean, let's face it: America has achieved some terriffic things. It's also achieved some horriffic ones. Just like any other country in the world, really. But when Americans turn on other Americans who are realistically asking the question "How can we make America a better place?" with the accusation that to even question America's current greatness status is unpatriotic and wrong, and when that opinion becomes so popular, cultural growth is being stunted.
I was in NYC a year or so ago, and some (yeah) talk radio host was banging on about the evils of Bill Clinton because he was *gasp* visiting foreign countries and "denigrating" the US (Which he wasn't. He was pushing his autobiography and trying to raise awareness of environmental issues). This jock's argument was that Americans should take a cold, hard look at who's paying for all of Mr. Clinton's jetsetting, because clearly the ex-President was being bribed into hating America.
He's an incredibly wealthy man, his family's minted, and he can afford his own flights if he wants to. But rather than actually listen to what Clinton was saying, Americans were being warned that the guy was clearly unpatriotic and hated America (a phrase used several times on several media while I was there).
How can a country grow when attempts to identify problems which need resolving are met with a blank wall of denial and accusations?
Mind you, America's young. It'll get over it. It's just not a pleasant phase to be going through.
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Mind you, America's young. It'll get over it. It's just not a pleasant phase to be going through.
It's one of the oldest nation states (in the modern sense) in the world, actually.
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Mind you, America's young. It'll get over it. It's just not a pleasant phase to be going through.
It's one of the oldest nation states (in the modern sense) in the world, actually.
Qualuifier: One of the oldest continuing governments.
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Mind you, America's young. It'll get over it. It's just not a pleasant phase to be going through.
It's one of the oldest nation states (in the modern sense) in the world, actually.
Qualuifier: One of the oldest continuing governments.
Well, it's certainly more complicated than my major oversimplification earlier, but the truth is more complicated than just continuing government. It's not just the US government that's remained coherent, it's also the governed body (though it did expand geographically quite a bit since it was established). Definitely, there are many nations that existed for far longer but had radical government changes after the establishment of the US, like China or Russia or France. But many current nations that we think of as old (like Italy or Germany) are creations of the 19th century. Yet others, like most Middle Eastern countries or Pacific Island nations, existed as ethnic groups but not "countries" in the way we think of them.
That said, there are plenty of countries in the world that can be convincingly argued to be older than the US. But if you just sort a list of current countries by some accepted version of their age, the US may not be one of the oldest, but it will certainly not be justifiable to call it young.
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Mind you, America's young. It'll get over it. It's just not a pleasant phase to be going through.
It's one of the oldest nation states (in the modern sense) in the world, actually.
Qualuifier: One of the oldest continuing governments.
Well, it's certainly more complicated than my major oversimplification earlier, but the truth is more complicated than just continuing government. It's not just the US government that's remained coherent, it's also the governed body (though it did expand geographically quite a bit since it was established). Definitely, there are many nations that existed for far longer but had radical government changes after the establishment of the US, like China or Russia or France. But many current nations that we think of as old (like Italy or Germany) are creations of the 19th century. Yet others, like most Middle Eastern countries or Pacific Island nations, existed as ethnic groups but not "countries" in the way we think of them.
That said, there are plenty of countries in the world that can be convincingly argued to be older than the US. But if you just sort a list of current countries by some accepted version of their age, the US may not be one of the oldest, but it will certainly not be justifiable to call it young.
I should have said Emphasize. I agreed with you and then when you add the government part it drives the point in like a nail. Troo is British however and they still have a problem with our little renegade colony. They have a serious problem getting their mind around having lost such a great empire.
(To all of our Brits I'm just kidding. You know I love you all.)
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Mind you, America's young. It'll get over it. It's just not a pleasant phase to be going through.
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
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How can a country grow when attempts to identify problems which need resolving are met with a blank wall of denial and accusations?
Troo, I think you just hit a nerve ;]
I agree with the point you were making, but I'm European, so...
I think America is quite occupied with America, because there is no serious need to do otherwise. In Europe, the countries are more involved with the other countries around them, because they need each other in many ways. After centuries of living together, we've learned to live with all the different countries with different values around us. America has a completely different history in that way.
So, it's not your fault, dear sweet Americans! Your country is just too darn big to be focused on other countries.
And yes, the Dutch still are mad that they lost New Amsterdam to the British, who called it New York!
Neh, I really can't remember a lot from those days. I was preoccupied with the well in my cellar.
There is not now, nor has there ever been, a well in my cellar.
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There is not now, nor has there ever been, a well in my cellar.
I LOVE that story. It's one of my top favorite EscapePod's evah. It's the one I use to proselytize, the gateway drug, if you will. And so far, not a single person whom I've told to listen to it has come back and told me they didn't like it. Most are like "that was an awesome story!"
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There is not now, nor has there ever been, a well in my cellar.
I LOVE that story. It's one of my top favorite EscapePod's evah. It's the one I use to proselytize, the gateway drug, if you will. And so far, not a single person whom I've told to listen to it has come back and told me they didn't like it. Most are like "that was an awesome story!"
Heh... I'll have to remember that... I'm terrible at recommending the "right" story. (Hey, if I'M excited about it, what does YOUR opinion matter?) :P
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Well, it's certainly more complicated than my major oversimplification earlier, but the truth is more complicated than just continuing government. It's not just the US government that's remained coherent, it's also the governed body (though it did expand geographically quite a bit since it was established). Definitely, there are many nations that existed for far longer but had radical government changes after the establishment of the US, like China or Russia or France. But many current nations that we think of as old (like Italy or Germany) are creations of the 19th century. Yet others, like most Middle Eastern countries or Pacific Island nations, existed as ethnic groups but not "countries" in the way we think of them.
That said, there are plenty of countries in the world that can be convincingly argued to be older than the US. But if you just sort a list of current countries by some accepted version of their age, the US may not be one of the oldest, but it will certainly not be justifiable to call it young.
I think that culturally, it's fair to call the US "young." Anything you could reasonably call a distinct American culture isn't much older than the beginnings of Eurpoean settlement in the 17th century. (In the sense we mean "American culture" today; let's leave the whole First Nations issue for another thread.) Meanwhile, something you could credibly call "French" or "English" culture appears somewhere around the 9th to the 11th century, maybe even as early as the 5th, depending on what you think the critical markers of a distinct culture are -- and let's not even think about how far back Chinese culture goes.
I think when people say the US is a "young nation" or a "young country" it's the cultural history they have in mind, not the length of time governed by a single governmental form.
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I think when people say the US is a "young nation" or a "young country" it's the cultural history they have in mind, not the length of time governed by a single governmental form.
I would agree, in many contexts, but this was specifically in the context of nationalism, where it seems to me that the relative non-youth of the US as a nation is certainly relevant.
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I think when people say the US is a "young nation" or a "young country" it's the cultural history they have in mind, not the length of time governed by a single governmental form.
I would agree, in many contexts, but this was specifically in the context of nationalism, where it seems to me that the relative non-youth of the US as a nation is certainly relevant.
Well, we're into that tricky definition of "nation." I'd argue that the feelings we call "nationalism" tend to coalesce around cultural values and issues rather than a specific government, though a government can become the focus of that. Many Basques, for example, consider themselves a nation, despite not having a national state to call their own; ditto Palestinians.