Foreign Languages

[Simon Painter]

Actually I'd argue that it is important for kids to learn correct grammar.  Not necessarily the whole hog with Pluperfect tenses, etc, but enough to be able to understand how English is constructed.  I think (in England, anyway) there's been a consistent drop in the quality of English over the last few centuries. 

The way I see it, if standard grammar isn't covered in schools, local dialects begin to take a greater precedent (or often in the UK's case, American accents as heard on the TV!) and it could become harder for effective communication to take place not just between different regions, but with other countries (if there's no standard of grammar, how will they be able to learn to understand the way anyone's talking?)

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

[Thaurismunths]

The way I see it, if standard grammar isn't covered in schools, local dialects begin to take a greater precedent (or often in the UK's case, American accents as heard on the TV!) and it could become harder for effective communication to take place not just between different regions, but with other countries (if there's no standard of grammar, how will they be able to learn to understand the way anyone's talking?)

I think time will only homogenize the language more, and unfortunately it's all going to start sounding American because of TV and YouTube.

[wakela]

French and German are completely phonetic, as indeed is pretty much any language that isn't English!

I am in no position to challenge as I know absolutely nothing about either language.  But please explain how this is pronounced phonetically:
"laissez les bon temps roulet"
Half of the letters are silent.  Is it that something like "emps" is a French phoneme that is always pronounced "aw" (with the throaty Frenchiness)? 
NOTE:  The above is not intended to be sarcastic or challenging.  I really have no idea and would like it explained to me.

The Japanese do a pretty good job with English spelling.  Unlike the French and Germans they are not coming from a position of thinking that spelling should make any sense.  There is no reliable correlation between the shape of a kanji and it's pronunciation.  They just have to memorize that this shape is pronounced this way in this context.  I think for this reason they can adopt to to arbitrariness of English spelling.  One guy told me that he studies the shape English words.  It's "carry" not "cally" because "carry" is flat on top like a road.  You could carry something across the top of "carry", but not "cally."

Though they do mix up their l's and r's, and it never stops being funny. 

[Simon Painter]

It's phonetic because the rules concerning unpronounced letters is *consistent* unlike English where it's amost arbitrary.  As I understand it in French the last constantnant is not pronounced on any word, excepting when the following word begins with a vowel.

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

[Anarkey]

French and German are completely phonetic, as indeed is pretty much any language that isn't English!

Or Welsh! (Somebody, buy those people a vowel!)

Are you so sure they're missing one?   Their LL is a vowel.

[Simon Painter]

Oh, sorry Wakela you you had a particular phrase in mind, I just remembered.

"laissez les bon temps roulet"

I think it's pronounced something like 'Lay-say lay boh'n tomp roo-lay'  I think it means 'let the good times roll'  though I'm not sure, I'm still on the intermediate level with French.

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

[Startrekwiki]

Oh, sorry Wakela you you had a particular phrase in mind, I just remembered.

"laissez les bon temps roulet"

I think it's pronounced something like 'Lay-say lay boh'n tomp roo-lay'  I think it means 'let the good times roll'  though I'm not sure, I'm still on the intermediate level with French.

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

Sorry to correct you, but it's
"Laissez les bon temps rouler". Close, but not quite correct.

[Michael]

America is definitely wrong in teaching language--rules of brain development show that if you are not exposed to a foreign language before age 12 you will never lose the accent.  We start teaching foreign languages in high school.   

[wakela]

Oh, sorry Wakela you you had a particular phrase in mind, I just remembered.

"laissez les bon temps roulet"

I think it's pronounced something like 'Lay-say lay boh'n tomp roo-lay'  I think it means 'let the good times roll'  though I'm not sure, I'm still on the intermediate level with French.

Simon Painter
Shropshire, UK

Thanks, MadJ.

Sorry to correct you, but it's
"Laissez les bon temps rouler". Close, but not quite correct.

Yeah, when I typed it in I knew that I would make a complete mess of the spelling.  But I did google the phrase and "roulet" is what I got.  I have since googled "rouler" , and that looks good, too.  So now what do we do?  If you can't trust the internet who can you trust?! 
For what it's worth, "rouler" looks more familiar to me.  This phrase is a slogan in New Orleans (where I'm from), and it's written on half the T-shirts.

America is definitely wrong in teaching language--rules of brain development show that if you are not exposed to a foreign language before age 12 you will never lose the accent.  We start teaching foreign languages in high school.

You are right if we assume that teaching a second language should be a high priority in the US.  IMHO, the hour a child spends studying another language would be better spent studying something else. 

[Anarkey]

IMHO, the hour a child spends studying another language would be better spent studying something else. 

Really?  Like what?  Music?

Because you know, foreign language study in elementary school not only gives kids better test scores in English vocab and comprehension, it might even give them better spatial abilities!

[wakela]

IMHO, the hour a child spends studying another language would be better spent studying something else.

Really?  Like what?  Music?

That may have come out a little stronger than intended.  I'm not saying people who study foreign languages shouldn't be allowed to marry and have abortions...sorry, just caught up with the tolerance thread.

I'm not against the study of foreign languages.  And I agree that foreign language study has all kinds of benefits, but so does the study for chess and the study of house building.  I just think that more concentration on the basics: science, math, English, history, etc. is more practical than studying a foreign language.   This goes for people who are raised knowing English. 

I bristle when people say that the American system is WRONG because we aren't taught to be bi-lingual.  Though now that I think of it, the American system is wrong because the time is spent to make us bi-lingual, but we are not.  I think it would be better to go one way or the other.  Either teach a foreign language the right way (and there are plenty of successful models) or skip it. 

[Thaurismunths]

I'm not against the study of foreign languages.  And I agree that foreign language study has all kinds of benefits, but so does the study for chess and the study of house building.  I just think that more concentration on the basics: science, math, English, history, etc. is more practical than studying a foreign language.   This goes for people who are raised knowing English. 

I bristle when people say that the American system is WRONG because we aren't taught to be bi-lingual.  Though now that I think of it, the American system is wrong because the time is spent to make us bi-lingual, but we are not.  I think it would be better to go one way or the other.  Either teach a foreign language the right way (and there are plenty of successful models) or skip it. 

I, respectfully, disagree.
Although I fall in with the "Welcome to America, learn to speak English" crowd, I think we are shooting ourselves in the foot by not using more foreign languages, and not traveling more. Also, the American education system needs to provide not only a core education (Math, History, and English) but a sampling of other types of education, like shop class, science, art, philosophy, and foreign languages. Our education system is being pared down to becoming education factories. No frills, no depth, just test scores in the major areas. Where will that put us 20 years from now, when we're importing all our welders, historians, philosophers, and linguists?

[wherethewild]

(this is just an aside and not part of the language discussion, feel free to skip over it)

Where will that put us 20 years from now, when we're importing all our welders, historians, philosophers, and linguists?

In my field (science), America is already starting to realise that the majority of the research workforce are immigrants. It seems that most leave science studies early for law/medicine/business. Understandable of course, because a career as a research scientist is low paying, high stress, and no job security. But still.

So just pointing out that you don´t have to wait 20 years to see that happening.

[Listener]

IMHO, the hour a child spends studying another language would be better spent studying something else.

Really?  Like what?  Music?

That may have come out a little stronger than intended.  I'm not saying people who study foreign languages shouldn't be allowed to marry and have abortions...sorry, just caught up with the tolerance thread.

I'm not against the study of foreign languages.  And I agree that foreign language study has all kinds of benefits, but so does the study for chess and the study of house building.  I just think that more concentration on the basics: science, math, English, history, etc. is more practical than studying a foreign language.   This goes for people who are raised knowing English. 

I bristle when people say that the American system is WRONG because we aren't taught to be bi-lingual.  Though now that I think of it, the American system is wrong because the time is spent to make us bi-lingual, but we are not.  I think it would be better to go one way or the other.  Either teach a foreign language the right way (and there are plenty of successful models) or skip it. 

I think the biggest problem in teaching Foreign Language is that kids aren't forced to use it and converse in it.  I took two years of HS Spanish and one semester of Spanish in College, and I still don't really know how to converse.  I can construct sentences and pick out words, but I can't say I speak the language.

IMO total immersion, with no use of your native language, is probably the best way to learn a new language the way it's supposed to be spoken.  The problem is that leads to frustration, because it's hard, and as a culture we tend to deplore difficult things.

[Startrekwiki]

Agreed. If you can't ask for a bus ride in a language, chances are you need to practise it more.

For example: I know all the colours in the world in German, and a few of the useflull verbs, such as the verb that is watching TV and listening, but, if I went to Germany, I wouldn't be able to ask for the washroom.
But, on the other hand, I went to a French school for eight years, and can ask for a Mocha, Double Chocholate, whippedcream with extra caramel croissant in France.

[jahnke]

I think the biggest problem in teaching Foreign Language is that kids aren't forced to use it and converse in it.  I took two years of HS Spanish and one semester of Spanish in College, and I still don't really know how to converse.  I can construct sentences and pick out words, but I can't say I speak the language.

Having taken 5 years of German in middle and high school, and then another 3 years in college it wasn't until I lived in the country a while before it really started to gel. I knew I had it when I not only understood conversations I was having at a bar with people, BUT the conversations going on around me. It has been 20 years now since I lived there. It takes a few mins to pick up things on DW (Deutsche Welle) and when I pick up a copy of Stern it is hit or miss if my brain will let me read it, Spiegel is out of reach anymore alas.

My wife, who I met in Germany over 20 years ago, is a polyglot. She is currently learning Spanish by watching TeleNovelas and then the same night posting summaries of them in English. She also speaks German and French, as well as English. Her brain is wired such that she picks up languages really easy, her degree is in journalism so words clearly are something she enjoys, but it is amazing to me that she can watch these things on TV and then understand them so quickly. I am sure she will pick up Italian as soon as she is done with Spanish already I she tells me that Spanish and Italian are very similar.

I think that while European countries start to teach languages sooner is important, the real difference is more that there is a greater tolerance/need/acceptance of foreign languages. In the US we get upset if we hear someone speak a foreign language. In Germany it was sometimes a struggle to get folks to speak German to me once they knew I was an American.

[wakela]

I studied Japanese for about three years.  Then when I came to Japan I was put in a Japanese class for people who had studied for three months.  That's the difference between studying everyday in a foreign country and studying once a week at home.   As a bonus, since most of my classmates in Japan didn't speak English, we had to use Japanese to socialize.

In the US we get upset if we hear someone speak a foreign language. In Germany it was sometimes a struggle to get folks to speak German to me once they knew I was an American.

It depends on where you are (I guess.  I've lived many places in the US, and I've almost never heard anyone get upset when they heard a foreign language).  Where I lived in New York English was the minority language.    Are you comparing rural US to urban Germany?  I would imaging that English ability drops off the further you get in the countryside.

[wherethewild]

    Are you comparing rural US to urban Germany?  I would imaging that English ability drops off the further you get in the countryside.

Only amongst the older generation (50+). Everyone else has had to study some at school (even if they left really young), and in rural Germany they see less foreigners so then it´s even more exciting to use English for them.

[Listener]

If I could go back, I would have learned a lot more languages and spent some time living in countries where they were used -- Quebec, somewhere in South America, Japan, Russia, Germany...

I really do want to learn Russian.  I just don't have the time right now.  It sucks.

[wherethewild]

A school friend of my husband now speaks over 15 languages. He was raised bilingual (German/Latvian) and just picks up langauges. He wanted to do a bike tour through Sweden, so he learnt Swedish (and now apparently lectures on Swedish grammar).

He said he just picks up a grammar book, reads it, and once you´ve got the rules down (apparently easy after the first 3 or 4 languages) the rest is just vocabulary.

[JoeFitz]

I had the good fortune of learning French by immersion, though my mother tongue is English. I happen to think it's the best way to get good pronunciation and comprehension, but I'm biased. I still listen to radio and watch television in French, and read occasionally in French, but only rarely do I get to use it.

For what it's worth, "laissez les bon temps rouler" is a Cajun colloquialism and not actually a French expression. I'd be more inclined to say "prenons du bon temps" as a translation of "let the good times roll."

JoeFitz

[Listener]

A school friend of my husband now speaks over 15 languages. He was raised bilingual (German/Latvian) and just picks up langauges. He wanted to do a bike tour through Sweden, so he learnt Swedish (and now apparently lectures on Swedish grammar).

He said he just picks up a grammar book, reads it, and once you´ve got the rules down (apparently easy after the first 3 or 4 languages) the rest is just vocabulary.

I imagine so.  Japanese grammar is relatively straightforward but the vocab is a pain.

[Simon Painter]

I really do want to learn Russian.  I just don't have the time right now.  It sucks.

I highly reccomend getting some MP3 lessons for a player, like Pimsleur or something similar, I'm actually learning French during my walk to work 

[jahnke]

It depends on where you are (I guess.  I've lived many places in the US, and I've almost never heard anyone get upset when they heard a foreign language).  Where I lived in New York English was the minority language.    Are you comparing rural US to urban Germany?  I would imaging that English ability drops off the further you get in the countryside.

I dunno... I don't see the same desire for a non speaker to "practice" with a speaker here in the US. I mean I see it every now and again, I have a friend who I worked with at Motorola who is into speech recognition and speech generation who will have people say words to him in foreign languages and he tries to say them back (getting a feel for the language) he also speaks a ton of them and is one of those really good guys at placing accents. HOWEVER, it is rare I see a native speaker of a another language communicate in their native language with a person here who does not also natively speak that language. Just for the record I live in Chicago which has HUGE immigrant populations so it isn't like native non English speakers are hard to find.

So when I go to my local Tacqueira the person who immigrated from Mexico who is behind the counter understands both English and Spanish but is clearly more comfortable in Spanish. BUT when I go to the Jewel the girl who is the cashier will not practice her Spanish on the native speakers that are in her line. Which was exactly the kind of interactions I had as an English speaker in Germany rural vs urban did not seem to matter, they all wanted to speak English to me. My father visited me and didn't know a word of German. The only problems he ever had were driving because no one was there to explain the road signs to him.

Having said that my employer has lunch time learning session which will teach people Spanish, and on the days that class is in session I do notice that the participants do indeed speak Spanish the people who work in the cafeteria. So who knows...

[wakela]

HOWEVER, it is rare I see a native speaker of a another language communicate in their native language with a person here who does not also natively speak that language.

Agreed.  But I think that English has a unique status among languages.  I don't know about Germany, but here in Japan it's cool and fun to speak English.  English ability is also skill more like math and science than just a second language.  People here are embarrassed when their English is bad, but not so much when their Chinese is bad. 
I don't think it's fault of Americans that we are worse at languages than Europeans.  It's apples and oranges.  A European gets more bang for the buck learning English than an American gets learning French or Spanish.   When a German and a Chinese do business, they are most likely speaking English.  Also, Americans can travel further than Europeans can in their own country without having to switch languages.

English is like Windows, and other languages are like Macs and Linux.  There is more reason to run a Windows emulator on a Mac or a Linux machine than visa-versa.  Also, people who use Macs and Linux machines think they are cooler than people who just use PCs.