Author Topic: EP123: Niels Bohr and the Sleeping Dane  (Read 47905 times)

Keith Istre

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • Keith Istre's Website
Reply #25 on: September 17, 2007, 09:18:51 PM
I really enjoyed the story, too.  But, must agree that the ending was a little pushed.  I would have preferred that somehow the father became the Sleeping Dane.  This would have reinforced the son’s father worship.

Being an unofficial Universalist, I believe many religious stories and concepts are expressions of scientific truths.  Some believe the story of the creation of earth and man in genesis has some basis of expressing the big bang and evolution theories.  I would conclude that god is the expression of life.  Religion just personifies that expression.

Another concern I have with the story is that it uses a current and real religion.  This may come across as advocating one religious truth over others.  I would consider it more fantasy or even sci-fi if it was based on a make believe or alien religion.  As much as I enjoyed the story, it is pushed to the border of being just a good  dramatic peice and not fantasy nor sci-fi.

Keith Istre ['is-trE]


DKT

  • Friendly Neighborhood
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4980
  • PodCastle is my Co-Pilot
    • Psalms & Hymns & Spiritual Noir
Reply #26 on: September 17, 2007, 09:52:39 PM
I loved this story.  It's my favorite here in quite a while.  Sullydog delivered another ace and I hope we see more from him.

I know some people feel a little let-down with the ending but the truth of the matter is, if Sullydog took out the giant golem stomping and slashing Nazis with his giant-ass sword, then this would be a WWII escape story *without* a giant golem stomping and slashing Nazis with his giant-ass sword.  And for me, that would have been a travesty  ;) 

Seriously, I don't think the golem thing was forced at all.  When his father used the Jedi mind-trick on SS officer, he dropped something about golems.  And I know it wasn't really a Jedi mind-trick -- I actually thought saying the SS officer was like a golem in the flesh was really take on what a golem is.  I would've been seriously annoyed if a golem hadn't shown up.

If you're looking for WWII stories where golems are involved but don't actually come to "life", check out Michael Chabon's The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay.  It's also got comic books in it and it is very good, even though the golem does not stomp and slash Nazis with a giant-ass sword.


davidg8089

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • "could be worse, could be raining..
Reply #27 on: September 18, 2007, 01:52:08 AM
IMNSHO  .. this was a very good story.  It told the story of emotions, of father and son, of mother and son and father in a very critical way.  The magical realism of the golem was a VERY GOOD touch.  Otherwise the story would have been weighed down by the humanity of the typical escape story.
Stories are for our amusement and entertainment as well as the exploration of the characters, after all.

All I could think of was Poul Anderson, and the night I met with him and heard him discussing battle tactics in Pennsylvania as Sir Bela of Eastmarch.  There are times where we are not who we are but close to who we would like to be.  Good story telling brings us close to those moments. 

Like dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, we see farther than they.              
Bernard of Chartres


davidg8089

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • "could be worse, could be raining..
Reply #28 on: September 18, 2007, 02:01:31 AM
To those who asked "if Rabbi's could make golems that would kick NAZI ass, why didn't they?" ask a further question.  If you KNEW, not thought, but KNEW in your heart that something you did, might at the same time save someone you love BUT also damn you to hell, or keep you from the knowledge of G_d FOREVER which is the same thing, WOULD YOU STILL DO IT?? 

Forever is a long time..

Like dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, we see farther than they.              
Bernard of Chartres


swdragoon

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 82
    • friends hating friends
Reply #29 on: September 18, 2007, 02:05:51 AM
yup

Improvise, Adapt ,Overcome.


davidg8089

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • "could be worse, could be raining..
Reply #30 on: September 18, 2007, 02:08:42 AM
Another concern I have with the story is that it uses a current and real religion.  This may come across as advocating one religious truth over others.  I would consider it more fantasy or even sci-fi if it was based on a make believe or alien religion.  As much as I enjoyed the story, it is pushed to the border of being just a good  dramatic peice and not fantasy nor sci-fi.

So, you're saying that if it is a current religion it should not be used in Science Fiction?  I find that interesting, but an odd thought.  Just as Neils Bohr's ideas of orbitals and such have been supplemented by later ideas of quantum and super string theory, so too are religious ideas important.  They may be older ones superceded by later ones but they are there none the less and have worth.  I find that the religious ideas here in this story have been used well and respectfully.  What more can you want?

Like dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, we see farther than they.              
Bernard of Chartres


Russell Nash

  • Guest
Reply #31 on: September 18, 2007, 08:20:08 AM
To those who asked "if Rabbi's could make golems that would kick NAZI ass, why didn't they?" ask a further question.  If you KNEW, not thought, but KNEW in your heart that something you did, might at the same time save someone you love BUT also damn you to hell, or keep you from the knowledge of G_d FOREVER which is the same thing, WOULD YOU STILL DO IT?? 

Forever is a long time..

More than 50 million people died in WWII.  Are you saying that someone with the power to stop all of that shouldn't, just to save his own soul?  How many genrally good people essentially lost their souls because of what they were forced to do to try and survive?

That's just warped math.



Lukica

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Reply #32 on: September 18, 2007, 09:21:32 AM
You know, I wanted my first post to be something happier and fluffier. But I have to admit, I found your comments on religion and science very, well, diplomatic. And not in a good sense.

You sit too stiffly on the fence between science and religion. Face it, science hasn't caused religious wars, religious persecution, pogroms, terror, mass suffering and so on. The support functions of religion you talk about (meaning and such like) don't outweigh the costs of religion. Religion, like other ideologies, is a great way of motivating groups, providing cohesion, glossing over glaring inequalities, injustices and just plain idiocies. And it's also great for polarising groups and promoting inter-group conflict.

A scientific viewpoint doesn't require people to blindly believe anything. To the question of "Why?" the scientific response is "Let's find out." The religious response is "Because XYZ says so, because it is thus revealed, because."

The gulf between science and religion is vast. Religion provides certainties, science provides a method to answer questions.

Oh, and the statement, "God is dead." That's Nietzche. And it doesn't talk about a metaphysical god. It talks about the relevance of the old-style god of the bible as a concept wielded by men. Sad to say, the concept of god isn't dead. I can only say, I wish it were.

The way things are, I think the following statement is most apt:

"God is the biggest damned cheerleader you can find, he'll shoot bolts of lightning from his arse* and zap x-ray lasers from his toes." Everybody wants to have a god or gods on their side.

*and yes, the blasphemy is intentional.



Listener

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • I place things in locations which later elude me.
    • Various and Sundry Items of Interest
Reply #33 on: September 18, 2007, 12:30:29 PM
As a final note....for some reason in the opening scene on the train, I kept anticipating the Rabbi's next words to be "you don't need to see his identification" or "he can go about his business"....or...."these aren't the droids you're looking for....."

That is EXACTLY what I thought.

"Farts are a hug you can smell." -Wil Wheaton

Blog || Quote Blog ||  Written and Audio Work || Twitter: @listener42


Listener

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • I place things in locations which later elude me.
    • Various and Sundry Items of Interest
Reply #34 on: September 18, 2007, 12:43:05 PM
As someone who married into a heavily-conservative Jewish family (I'm reform/nonobservant myself), I appreciated the accuracy of the Jews of the time.  As someone who's read other golem stories (see list below), I liked the take on them, especially the way the father explained how he (for lack of a better term) turned the SS man into a golem.

Not knowing much about Niels Bohr other than a general grok of his scientific discoveries, I had no problem with him being in the story, though like some others I also was a little worried that Niels Bohr actually was in the story.  And speaking to the people who weren't thrilled with Holger Danske waking up at the end and going River Tam on the SS... well... that was the big payoff, I think.  The whole story built up to the father using his power over golems to save everyone.  I agree that the story would've been as good if the father had directly Obi-Wan'd the SS, but it wouldn't have been as exciting or dynamic or vivid as the golem laying the smackdown. 

I mean, come on, if you were a submissions editor and you first read this and, in your mind's eye, saw an eight-foot-tall Danish warrior statue cleaving SS officers in twain, you'd probably have stamped a big smiley-face on this one too.

If there was a problem I personally had with the story, it was with the coda at the end.  I would've been happy with the story had it ended with David, Niels, and Margarethe (sp?) on the boat, heading to Sweden.  I think it was evident that, with Niels as his mentor, David would end up being successful in his field.  We didn't need to hear he was still kicking around, 60 years later, about to win a Nobel Prize (?).

The reading was up to its usual strong Eley standards.  I'm glad that I didn't have to pronounce those names.  If anything, "Holger Danske" often sounded like "olgerdansk" or "holgerdansk" and I wasn't sure how it would be spelled.  Little details like that sometimes grab my brain and take me out of the story.  But then, had I been reading this instead of listening to it, that wouldn't have been an issue, so I'm not really unhappy or anything.

Overall, a good story.  I liked it a lot.  I find that, though I used to strongly resist Holocaust-centered fiction in my younger days, taken in small doses like this and like "Brothers", I'm okay with it.  Perhaps because, unlike what was forced on me in Hebrew school in the early 90s, this story wasn't at all heavy-handed.  It wasn't a cautionary tale like so much of that genre seems to be (IMO).  It was a story that happened to take place during the Holocaust, happened to involve Jewish refugees, and happened to also be nominally in the SF/F/H genre.  The incidental-ness of it made it work for me; it was about the characters, not about the events.

Other good golem stories (novels):
Terry Pratchett:  "Going Postal", "Feet of Clay"
Marge Piercy:  "He, She, and It"
China Mieville:  "Iron Council"

"Farts are a hug you can smell." -Wil Wheaton

Blog || Quote Blog ||  Written and Audio Work || Twitter: @listener42


Etherius

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Mad Scientist in Training
    • Metamor City, a SF/Fantasy Podcast Series
Reply #35 on: September 18, 2007, 06:41:14 PM
This is one of my favorite Escape Pod episodes yet. It's a strong story, with good characters, cool ideas, a very tasty blend of science and mysticism, and undeniable emotional impact.

I particularly appreciated both the themes of this story and Steve's opening monologue because they resonate so deeply with me on a personal level. I was raised in a conservative Christian upbringing, in which I immersed myself wholeheartedly and completely. I had read the Bible three times from cover to cover by the age of sixteen. I am also a scientist: I have a bachelor's degree in biochemistry and a master's degree in biology, and my research has been published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. As if that combination weren't enough, I am also something of a mystic; I have studied the works of Brother Lawrence and A.W. Tozer, and the next non-fiction book on my to-be-read list is "The Good Heart", which is the Dalai Lama's reflections on the teachings of Jesus. I have had personal experiences that I would classify as spiritual and supernatural; I have seen both the divine and the demonic at work, and I do not use either of those terms lightly.

I have my feet in two worlds; I am a devout apologist of the merits of science, and yet the deepest parts of me are drawn to things that science cannot touch. I have trained for a career of fitting the world into observable and measurable categories, yet I seek after the moments that shatter those boxes and leave me on my knees in astonished wonder. I will not divorce myself from my mind or my heart, and for that reason I connect deeply with the character of David in this story.

I should note, in passing, that most of my friends in both worlds are accepting of my eccentricities, or at least tolerant of them. On the whole, I experience more hostility and resistance from the religious side, while my scientific associates are more likely to respond with bemusement or a "whatever works for you" attitude. (The only overtly anti-religious sentiment I faced in grad school was when someone took down a copy of this picture that I had posted in my office. Interestingly, the person chose to go behind my back and complain to one of my lab-mates instead of confronting me about it directly.)  I think that the lack of religious people in the sciences is not due to an inherent bias against us by most scientists -- though, to be sure, there are people like Richard Dawkins out there for whom atheism is a religion to be defended at all costs.  Rather, I think the primary reason is that religious communities tend to encourage all of their brightest young people to enter the ministry. Becoming a pastor or theologian is seen as the highest calling a person could achieve, and so many brilliant young religious minds end up exiled to the ghetto of the theological seminary when they could be joining the world of science.

C.S. Lewis, in his book "Christian Apologetics," offered some very good advice to the Christian community:

Quote
What we want is not more little books about Christianity, but more little books by Christians on other subjects -- with their Christianity latent. You can see this most easily if you look at it the other way round. Our faith is not likely to be shaken by any book on Hinduism. But, if whenever we read an elementary book on geology, botany, politics, or astronomy, we found that its implications were Hindu, that would shake us. It is not the books written in direct defense of materialism that make the modern man a materialist; it is the materialistic assumptions in all the other books. In the same way, it is not books on Christianity that will really trouble him. But he would be troubled if, whenever he wanted a cheap popular introduction to some science, the best work on the market was always by a Christian.

It is, I believe, a detriment to both the religious community and the world at large that his advice was not followed.

"Be the difference you want to see in the world." -- Mahatma Gandhi


Bright Lies

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Reply #36 on: September 19, 2007, 03:55:16 AM

Like I pointed out above, it was an update of "The Golem" which was an update of a 1920 german film, "Der Golem", which was an update of "The Golem of Prague" (mid 1500's).

Anyhow.   You're right!  It definitely feels like OTR and there's an OTR story that it is very closely related to. :)
Ok, maybe it WAS just an updated story (thanks for the links!).  But THIS one was ready performed by Steve Eley.  So yeah...

I really don't have much else to add to the conversation, except that I echo those, who echo others, and so on back to Mr. Tweedy.
On God:  I thought the internet was God...  Now I'm REALLY confused!   ???



davidg8089

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • "could be worse, could be raining..
Reply #37 on: September 19, 2007, 04:12:18 AM
More than 50 million people died in WWII.  Are you saying that someone with the power to stop all of that shouldn't, just to save his own soul?  How many genrally good people essentially lost their souls because of what they were forced to do to try and survive?

That's just warped math.

I have no clue.  However if you were asked about your own personal experience, whether you were going to be outside the experience of the Creator FOREVER by doing one particular act... would you do it?  Probably very few lost their own souls as long as they acted to the best of their ability .  .. and remember the creation of the golem itself did NOT end the war..

Like dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, we see farther than they.              
Bernard of Chartres


Russell Nash

  • Guest
Reply #38 on: September 19, 2007, 07:48:33 AM
More than 50 million people died in WWII.  Are you saying that someone with the power to stop all of that shouldn't, just to save his own soul?  How many genrally good people essentially lost their souls because of what they were forced to do to try and survive?

That's just warped math.

I have no clue.  However if you were asked about your own personal experience, whether you were going to be outside the experience of the Creator FOREVER by doing one particular act... would you do it?  Probably very few lost their own souls as long as they acted to the best of their ability .  .. and remember the creation of the golem itself did NOT end the war..

The original statement was why didn't a bunch of Rabbis make a bunch of golem each.  Since Rabbis are supposed to take care of their people, I think they would be obliged to fight in everyway possible.  I respectable god would wrap them in his love for all of the good they ended up doing.

It doesn't matter since golems are as real as ID (my current punching bag, Bdoomed needs a rest).  It would be a cool alternate history to have a force of golems take on the third reich (non-capitalization is intentional).



Listener

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • I place things in locations which later elude me.
    • Various and Sundry Items of Interest
Reply #39 on: September 19, 2007, 12:18:46 PM
More than 50 million people died in WWII.  Are you saying that someone with the power to stop all of that shouldn't, just to save his own soul?  How many genrally good people essentially lost their souls because of what they were forced to do to try and survive?

That's just warped math.

I have no clue.  However if you were asked about your own personal experience, whether you were going to be outside the experience of the Creator FOREVER by doing one particular act... would you do it?  Probably very few lost their own souls as long as they acted to the best of their ability .  .. and remember the creation of the golem itself did NOT end the war..

The original statement was why didn't a bunch of Rabbis make a bunch of golem each.  Since Rabbis are supposed to take care of their people, I think they would be obliged to fight in everyway possible. 

Probably for a few reasons:

1.  Not every Rabbi necessarily knows how to make a golem.  In the stories I've read, one underlying theme is that you have to be at least somewhat versed in kabbalah to know how to do it, and I don't know that every Rabbi is.

2.  Even if Rabbis are versed in kabbalah, I'd think golemistry is pretty esoteric.  I may be wrong.

3.  Rabbi Goldblum didn't create either of the two golems in the story.  He used other creations as golems -- the SS man and Holger Danske.  To create a golem from scratch, you need to build a man of clay.  Other Rabbis could've used empty-headed men (like the SS man on the train), but I would think it's much easier to animate a man of clay than it is to fill the head of another living creature.

4.  In "Brothers" (Pseudopod), it's said that the creation of a golem is a sin, which is why that golem killed the Rabbi who created him and then his own "brother".  I don't know enough kabbalah to know if that's true or not, but in my limited interpretation of Torah, if G-d creates man, man should not seek to emulate G-d by creating his own lifeform.  (Reproduction is different -- be fruitful and multiply, et al -- but I think the interpretation is "you're not G-d, I am, so you do what I made you to do, and I'll do what I do, and everyone goes away happy".)

I'm a casual Jew at best these days, but that's my opinion.

"Farts are a hug you can smell." -Wil Wheaton

Blog || Quote Blog ||  Written and Audio Work || Twitter: @listener42


Russell Nash

  • Guest
Reply #40 on: September 19, 2007, 12:25:08 PM
What if you're using the golems to battle some other abomination?  I see a zombie vs. golem story.



roddo

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Reply #41 on: September 19, 2007, 01:56:28 PM
Enjoyed the story.  But, the simple waking of the giant statue as a golem did not work for me. I was interested in hearing more about the connection of the body, Jewish mythology and atomic structure. Was that all made up or was it based on actually beliefs?

My 2 cents on Steve's intro. usually these are spot on, but this time I could not agree.
Most religion does not readily accept new knowledge that challenges its rigid dogma. (Of the world's great religious leaders, the Dalai Lama is the only one I have heard say that if religion and observable reality conflict, he would have to reconsider his religious tenants.)
The scientists I know are not dogmatic. They accept and examine new information to update their understanding of the world. This is the basis of the scientific method.
Secondly, it seems ironic to talk of the benefits of religion in the introduction to a story based on the actions of the German army in WW2. They had "Gott mit uns" (God with us) on their belt buckles and their leaders used religion to justify the holocaust.
Much religion is divisive and harmful. I was taught that several of my school friends were going to burn in hell for eternity because they believed the wrong dogma. Not to mention the billions of Chinese, Africans, Muslims and other who had other beliefs because they were born in non-Christian families.



DKT

  • Friendly Neighborhood
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4980
  • PodCastle is my Co-Pilot
    • Psalms & Hymns & Spiritual Noir
Reply #42 on: September 19, 2007, 03:55:22 PM
Russell, you should definitely check out Iron Council.  It's not my favorite Mieville book by a long shot, but the parts with golems are awesome, and IIRC there's a golems (plural) at one point do fight a group of New Crobuzon's army.


Anarkey

  • Meen Pie
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 703
  • ...depends a good deal on where you want to get to
Reply #43 on: September 19, 2007, 04:02:14 PM
I tell myself just about every day that I hate alternate history, but EscapePod proves me wrong just about as often as it  proves me right.

I'll have to think a little harder about why I hate some kinds of alternate history before I can articulate it clearly but for now: this right here?  This is the kind I don't hate. 

Thanks, EscapePod.

Winner Nash's 1000th member betting pool + Thaurismunths' Free Rice Contest!


Russell Nash

  • Guest
Reply #44 on: September 19, 2007, 04:27:11 PM
Is this really alternate history or is it historical fiction?

History isn't really changed.  This incident was just embelished.  Historical fiction is full of charactors interacting with real people.



Anarkey

  • Meen Pie
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 703
  • ...depends a good deal on where you want to get to
Reply #45 on: September 19, 2007, 07:56:13 PM
Is this really alternate history or is it historical fiction?

History isn't really changed.  This incident was just embelished.  Historical fiction is full of charactors interacting with real people.

Ehhh, as much as I'm dying to get into yet another semantic argument about whether this particular genre niche is a dodecahedron or a heptagon and whether the story fits it (I lie.  I am not even remotely tempted to get in another such argument, just as I have not been remotely tempted to participate in any of the prior ones) it smelled and walked and talked like alternate history to me, so I named it such.  Naming it something else would be a convenient way for me to continue to hate all alternate history, I guess, but ehhh.

Still, got no problem with you naming it something else, if that suits you. 

Winner Nash's 1000th member betting pool + Thaurismunths' Free Rice Contest!


SFEley

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1408
    • Escape Artists, Inc.
Reply #46 on: September 19, 2007, 08:12:53 PM
Is this really alternate history or is it historical fiction?

History isn't really changed.  This incident was just embelished.  Historical fiction is full of charactors interacting with real people.

I've sometimes heard this particular sort of speculative fiction referred to as "secret history."  Stories where the broad strokes of history aren't affected, and the story might have happened if the magic or technology were possible -- it just wasn't written down. 

Vonda McIntyre's novel The Moon and the Sun is a strong example.  It's a very engaging novel about Louis XIV's court in Versailles, with only the addition of an intelligent sea monster whom the nobles are keeping as a sort of pet.

Stephenson's entire Baroque Cycle, and the WWII half of Cryptonomicon, could also be considered secret history.  For the most part, the real historical figures in these novels do pretty much what history records them as doing.  Stephenson just has them doing an awful lot of other things besides.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 08:19:21 PM by SFEley »

ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine


Cap10

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Reply #47 on: September 19, 2007, 10:37:42 PM
I found this piece interesting from a character development point of view; it describes the creation of a great scientist. I have met several Nobel Laureates and have had the honor of attending the Nobel Prize Ceremony, as well as competing in several national and international science competitions. After meeting scientists from all over the world I quickly realized many have strange stories of their discoveries. The story depicts this well. The story also speaks of the moment of winning. That at first you feel on top of the world, then you remember. You remember the people who make you who you are and who inspired to do research. It is truly an extraordinary feeling.



DigitalVG

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 38
Reply #48 on: September 19, 2007, 10:59:21 PM
Probably for a few reasons:

1.  Not every Rabbi necessarily knows how to make a golem.  In the stories I've read, one underlying theme is that you have to be at least somewhat versed in kabbalah to know how to do it, and I don't know that every Rabbi is.

Okay.  Between your comment here and Nash's comment above about how it'd make an interesting alternate history, my brain suggested, "Probably about as common as Catholic priests who can perform exorcisms." and then I wondered if a priest could exorcise a golem.  And then my brain plugged in a memory circuit from some TV program that alleged that the Vatican had helped nazis flee German in the final days of the war.    So.  (ignoring the obvious fact that any way you went with this story, it'd have racist overtones) there's your answer!  Some religious group working for the nazis obviously knew of some way to destroy golems.

Anyhow.  I'm pretty sure this story has been done and it's called Hellboy.



Jeraliey

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Reply #49 on: September 20, 2007, 04:26:23 AM
Seems to me that the head-butting in the religion-vs-science debate isn't due to the dogmatic nature of the beliefs on either side...it's more that each side is hell-bent on proselytizing their viewpoint.  It's as if people have to convince everyone that they have a monopoly on Ultimate Truth in order to legitimize their own beliefs.