Author Topic: EP134: Me and My Shadow  (Read 39906 times)

gelee

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Reply #25 on: December 05, 2007, 03:21:17 PM
Moved to other thread...
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 09:19:20 PM by gelee »



DDog

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Reply #26 on: December 05, 2007, 08:37:22 PM
Thought it was pretty good. A little surprised when he just reverts--no explanation of why he gets to be the magic erasure and get his urges back. Does he just start killing people again or does he go to the other erasures and teach them how to find themselves again? Interesting premise, enjoyable listen; story could have been so much more.

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Reply #27 on: December 05, 2007, 11:18:35 PM
That's a false dichotomy.  Things can be both truisms and clichés.  In fact, I would say that nine times out of ten a cliché arises from a perceived truism and serves to reinforce it.  That doesn't mean it's not lazy writing.  I think a gift that science fiction can (at its best) give us is the examination of our preconceived notions.  By having this character appear unexamined, for the sole purpose of being murdered, the chance to explore a whole host of held notions about sex workers, women, and balances of power slipped by.

Alternate theory: my interpretation of the story (which I haven't tried to confirm with Mike Resnick or anyone else) was that killing the hooker wasn't random at all.  The voice said it "felt right" to kill her because he had a reason to wander in the direction he'd been going and find her.  The most obvious possibility is that she was the girlfriend who ratted him out.

That doesn't make the killing any less atrocious, of course.  But it does remove it a step or two from the unexamined cliché of your interpretation, and it would be consistent with the next killing that "felt right" -- completing the hit he'd been contracted for.  Just a thought.

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eytanz

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Reply #28 on: December 06, 2007, 01:27:29 AM
Alternate theory: my interpretation of the story (which I haven't tried to confirm with Mike Resnick or anyone else) was that killing the hooker wasn't random at all.  The voice said it "felt right" to kill her because he had a reason to wander in the direction he'd been going and find her.  The most obvious possibility is that she was the girlfriend who ratted him out.

That doesn't make the killing any less atrocious, of course.  But it does remove it a step or two from the unexamined cliché of your interpretation, and it would be consistent with the next killing that "felt right" -- completing the hit he'd been contracted for.  Just a thought.

Well, it replaces the cliche with a very uncomfortable coincidence - that on the night he decided to experiment with murder, he just bumps into his old girlfriend. Of course, it's possible he was subconciously seeking her, but that's going a lot further than what the story gives us - plus, it's not like he knocks on her door, but she approaches him. That means his subconcious mind would not only need to know she was a prostitute (which means she would have had to be a prostitute when they were together), but that he knew where she lived and that she is likely to approach random strangers.

Personally, I think I'd rather accept that the story treats prostitutes as good candidates for victimization (which may be a cliche, but one well grounded in reality) than a really convenient coincidence or a really convluated explanation.



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Reply #29 on: December 06, 2007, 01:48:38 AM
I think my favorite part of this story was the voice of the narrator. I don't mean Steve's audio interpretation, which I thought was great too, but the style of the character telling the story. He's got such a wry attitude toward his situation. That's what made me identify with his character so that when he started going wrong, I really felt the horror.

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gelee

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Reply #30 on: December 06, 2007, 03:04:50 PM
Alternate theory: my interpretation of the story (which I haven't tried to confirm with Mike Resnick or anyone else) was that killing the hooker wasn't random at all.  The voice said it "felt right" to kill her because he had a reason to wander in the direction he'd been going and find her.  The most obvious possibility is that she was the girlfriend who ratted him out.

That doesn't make the killing any less atrocious, of course.  But it does remove it a step or two from the unexamined cliché of your interpretation, and it would be consistent with the next killing that "felt right" -- completing the hit he'd been contracted for.  Just a thought.

Well, it replaces the cliche with a very uncomfortable coincidence - that on the night he decided to experiment with murder, he just bumps into his old girlfriend. Of course, it's possible he was subconciously seeking her, but that's going a lot further than what the story gives us - plus, it's not like he knocks on her door, but she approaches him. That means his subconcious mind would not only need to know she was a prostitute (which means she would have had to be a prostitute when they were together), but that he knew where she lived and that she is likely to approach random strangers.

Personally, I think I'd rather accept that the story treats prostitutes as good candidates for victimization (which may be a cliche, but one well grounded in reality) than a really convenient coincidence or a really convluated explanation.

I have to agree with eytanz.  I thought that the prostitute might be his old girlfreind, but that was just a bit too much of a stretch.
At any rate, I don't have a problem with the "cliche" of the murdered prostitute.  Making your serial killer villain a male isn't cliche - most serial killers are males.



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Reply #31 on: December 08, 2007, 09:05:28 AM
How about: the prostitute reminded him of his ratting girlfriend, thus triggering something in him/them..?

I must say, as someone who's partner is studying to become an accountant... The remark about attention to detail made me first smile with recognition, then frown with slight concern... An accountant psychopath killer would make a very scary badguy indeed :-\



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Reply #32 on: December 08, 2007, 05:40:05 PM
When accountants go bad...

...the other side of the ledger.

 :P

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Reply #33 on: December 08, 2007, 08:05:51 PM
I must say, as someone who's partner is studying to become an accountant... The remark about attention to detail made me first smile with recognition, then frown with slight concern... An accountant psychopath killer would make a very scary badguy indeed :-\

They go around talking about tax deductions and boring people to death.  Sounds like a truly horrible villian.



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Reply #34 on: December 09, 2007, 08:46:45 AM
I think the discussion of Motivation & Punishment was starting to take over, so I moved it here.



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Reply #35 on: December 09, 2007, 06:59:53 PM
That doesn't make the killing any less atrocious, of course.  But it does remove it a step or two from the unexamined cliché of your interpretation, and it would be consistent with the next killing that "felt right" -- completing the hit he'd been contracted for.  Just a thought.

I'm with eytanz.  The "random hooker was really the woman who turned him in" interpretation is a little too neat for my tastes, though it's not counter-textual.  However, I think you misunderstand my problem with the whole scenario.  It's not the horrifying and atrocious (as you would call it) murder of the hooker that bugs me.  The murder is neither horrifying nor atrocious because the author has worked really hard to make the prostitute a cardboard cutout, a not real person.  She's just the silhouette at the other end of the firing range.  There's nothing there to be horrified by.  She's a plot point on the way to a clever ending.  That bothers me.  Using the shorthand of the hooker cliché is just emblematic of how little value the author saw in the character.  Characters should be people, not stereotypes.  And, for my personal tastes, women characters should be people, because frankly, I'm kinda done with fiction where the woman is just the love/sex interest or the body count.  Been there, done that.  Met my quota.  This is a purely personal sticking point, I'm well aware, and that's why I classed it as a pet peeve.

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Reply #36 on: December 09, 2007, 07:10:46 PM
We have a short story with limited space.  We want to show quickly that our main charactor  is develoing a taste for blood.  Give me an example that can be written in as few words that I can't make the same arguments about.

I hesitated to reply to this because I don't want to fall into what eytanz described way upthread as making the story better, or more the story I wish I'd heard, or do a good parts transformation on it.  However, just for starters, Russell, I think there were about 150-200 words too many of boring telephone conversation with the doctor, and I'd definitely have cut some of that for two sentences that might have made our hooker a person instead of a cliché.  It doesn't take a lot of space to put in telling details.  I also didn't need to be told quite so repeatedly nor in such detail about the (wooo coool!) moving sidewalks.  I'm also not sure why we couldn't have had him kill the first guy he saw, and have him call the doctor after that, on a real emergency, as opposed to a "i'm just having bad thoughts" emergency.  Hell, even the computer had more personality than the hooker, and did we need that?

Obviously everyone given the same topic would have written the story differently, and in fact, at least three people did, as Mr. Resnick told us.  Maybe Silverberg's or Bester's versions would have worked better for me than this one did.  I had a basic problem with this story being about the nature of humanity and self and then throwing out paper thin depictions of humans to illustrate that.

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Reply #37 on: December 09, 2007, 07:27:07 PM
That doesn't make the killing any less atrocious, of course.  But it does remove it a step or two from the unexamined cliché of your interpretation, and it would be consistent with the next killing that "felt right" -- completing the hit he'd been contracted for.  Just a thought.

I'm with eytanz.  The "random hooker was really the woman who turned him in" interpretation is a little too neat for my tastes, though it's not counter-textual.  However, I think you misunderstand my problem with the whole scenario.  It's not the horrifying and atrocious (as you would call it) murder of the hooker that bugs me.  The murder is neither horrifying nor atrocious because the author has worked really hard to make the prostitute a cardboard cutout, a not real person.  She's just the silhouette at the other end of the firing range.  There's nothing there to be horrified by.  She's a plot point on the way to a clever ending.  That bothers me.  Using the shorthand of the hooker cliché is just emblematic of how little value the author saw in the character.  Characters should be people, not stereotypes.  And, for my personal tastes, women characters should be people, because frankly, I'm kinda done with fiction where the woman is just the love/sex interest or the body count.  Been there, done that.  Met my quota.  This is a purely personal sticking point, I'm well aware, and that's why I classed it as a pet peeve.


I just wanted to respond to this, because as an Old School SF fan, I really value these cardboard cutouts.  Don't get me wrong, I understand the rage that can be brought by sexist stereotypes and cliche's, but I tend to look at older SF as being a more innocent form.  Writting for a small, specific audience in the pulps, where the Author knew their audience well enough that they could pull out shorthand for any issue they didn't think was what the game is about.  Now this one is an old Resnick story, not 1950's old but still from an earlier age of SF...  Back in the old Heinlein stories (like All You Zombies as a classic example of magnificent storytelling dripping with gender stereotypes) I always give the benefit of the doubt,  each time he pulls out a piece of writerly shorthand like this, I took it as "you, my readers, aren't interested in this... Let's skip on to the time travel!".  And I appreciated that, the competition - the game - of SF wasn't about writing a perfectly structured example of the 20th century American short. The game was to write a stripped down world, an action packed tale, and smack through to a twist in less than 20 pages.  Cardboard cutout cliche's allowed you to add plot/emotional elements rapidly, without feeling the need to develop them.

Now, apart from Heinlein, Bester was the absolute KING of this technique (so, i'll have Gully rape a schoolteacher to build some dramatic tension, but then we'll move onto the explosive material that detonates when you think at it).  So, when I read that Resnick was "channelling Bester" in this story I thought - AHA!

That's not to say I still think this is an acceptable way to build tension, and I can see why it annoys the hell out of feminists... But I think it is a key part of SF's stripped down heritage... And I respect Resnick for writing what appears to be a stylistic tribute to the one of best SF writers there ever was.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 10:28:53 PM by Simon »



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Reply #38 on: December 10, 2007, 09:11:33 PM
Fascinating parallel to this story in this week's Pseudopod story "Memories of the Knacker's Yard." ;) If taking your memories of being a cold-blooded killer away doesn't make you a decent human being, will giving a decent human being a cold-blooded killer's memories turn them into one?

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Reply #39 on: December 11, 2007, 06:56:31 PM
I think the discussion of Motivation & Punishment was starting to take over, so I moved it here.

This discussion has brought up a point that, while not directly connected to the story, triggered a thought.  What if (and I'm not saying Mr.Resnik had this in mind at all) our main charactor wasn't a serial murderer?  Let's say he was grade A evil, but not murderous.  A serial rapists of nine year old girls or something almost as bad.  This is what gets him erased. 

He spends all of his time trying to figure out why he was erased, then he gets attacked and some kind of self-preservation response kicks in.  He figures he must have been a murderer.  He starts working on this idea so hard he believes it has to be true.  Throw in a little schizophrenia and, bam, now we have a serial murderer.



gelee

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Reply #40 on: December 11, 2007, 06:59:48 PM
I think the discussion of Motivation & Punishment was starting to take over, so I moved it here.

This discussion has brought up a point that, while not directly connected to the story, triggered a thought.  What if (and I'm not saying Mr.Resnik had this in mind at all) our main charactor wasn't a serial murderer?  Let's say he was grade A evil, but not murderous.  A serial rapists of nine year old girls or something almost as bad.  This is what gets him erased. 

He spends all of his time trying to figure out why he was erased, then he gets attacked and some kind of self-preservation response kicks in.  He figures he must have been a murderer.  He starts working on this idea so hard he believes it has to be true.  Throw in a little schizophrenia and, bam, now we have a serial murderer.

OK, so then you have a "Don't Tamper With Nature" story.  Interesting implication, and it reveals another possible layer to the story. 



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Reply #41 on: December 11, 2007, 07:05:03 PM
This discussion has brought up a point that, while not directly connected to the story, triggered a thought.  What if (and I'm not saying Mr.Resnik had this in mind at all) our main charactor wasn't a serial murderer?  Let's say he was grade A evil, but not murderous.  A serial rapists of nine year old girls or something almost as bad.  This is what gets him erased. 

He spends all of his time trying to figure out why he was erased, then he gets attacked and some kind of self-preservation response kicks in.  He figures he must have been a murderer.  He starts working on this idea so hard he believes it has to be true.  Throw in a little schizophrenia and, bam, now we have a serial murderer.


Or if it was the story of the con who stole a pizza and was erased for his 3rd strike, only in his search to figure out why he was erased, he becomes more of a criminal than he started out.  (I don't remember if you can be erased for theft in this story or not.)


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Reply #42 on: December 11, 2007, 08:31:36 PM
This discussion has brought up a point that, while not directly connected to the story, triggered a thought.  What if (and I'm not saying Mr.Resnik had this in mind at all) our main charactor wasn't a serial murderer?  Let's say he was grade A evil, but not murderous.  A serial rapists of nine year old girls or something almost as bad.  This is what gets him erased. 

He spends all of his time trying to figure out why he was erased, then he gets attacked and some kind of self-preservation response kicks in.  He figures he must have been a murderer.  He starts working on this idea so hard he believes it has to be true.  Throw in a little schizophrenia and, bam, now we have a serial murderer.


Or if it was the story of the con who stole a pizza and was erased for his 3rd strike, only in his search to figure out why he was erased, he becomes more of a criminal than he started out.  (I don't remember if you can be erased for theft in this story or not.)

That's kind of what I was going for except I figured you had to be really bad to get erased.  I was trying to come up with something that was an erasable offense, but not murder.  I was also thinking about an arsonist who thought the building was empty, but there was really seven teenagers drinking beer.  That probably would have been a better example.



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Reply #43 on: December 11, 2007, 09:00:12 PM
Do you mean that A main character in this sort of story could have had that real backstory? Or the particular main character that we did have? Because the doctor explains that he killed X people for X reason--unless the doctor is thinking of someone else, in which case...

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Reply #44 on: December 11, 2007, 09:03:01 PM
Do you mean that A main character in this sort of story could have had that real backstory? Or the particular main character that we did have? Because the doctor explains that he killed X people for X reason--unless the doctor is thinking of someone else, in which case...

No it was jujst a what if kind of thing.  Just playing with the concept.



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Reply #45 on: December 11, 2007, 10:53:32 PM
This discussion has brought up a point that, while not directly connected to the story, triggered a thought.  What if (and I'm not saying Mr.Resnik had this in mind at all) our main charactor wasn't a serial murderer?  Let's say he was grade A evil, but not murderous.  A serial rapists of nine year old girls or something almost as bad.  This is what gets him erased. 

He spends all of his time trying to figure out why he was erased, then he gets attacked and some kind of self-preservation response kicks in.  He figures he must have been a murderer.  He starts working on this idea so hard he believes it has to be true.  Throw in a little schizophrenia and, bam, now we have a serial murderer.


Or if it was the story of the con who stole a pizza and was erased for his 3rd strike, only in his search to figure out why he was erased, he becomes more of a criminal than he started out.  (I don't remember if you can be erased for theft in this story or not.)

That's kind of what I was going for except I figured you had to be really bad to get erased.  I was trying to come up with something that was an erasable offense, but not murder.  I was also thinking about an arsonist who thought the building was empty, but there was really seven teenagers drinking beer.  That probably would have been a better example.

I think that's a cool idea, Russel.  If you have to be an evil bastard wouldn't you rather be a bad ass ninja assassin than a pedophile or a blundering arsonist?  And since he is an erasure, being an evil bastard is the only hard fact he knows about himself.  As long as this guy is making up a past for himself he could have fabricated the doctor, too.  The doctor serves the function of verifying that our guy is in fact a bad ass ninja assassin, then he is conveniently removed.



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Reply #46 on: December 11, 2007, 11:50:49 PM
If I had known this story had been written more than 20 years ago, I would have listened to it in a different frame of mind.  The idea of a guy who has been erased, and has clues that he is a bad ass, and wants to find out who he is, but is afraid of what he might discover has been done a lot.  And Me and My Shadow doesn't add much to the sub genre.  But now that I see the Me and My Shadow was written more than 20 years ago.  If I had read it 20 years ago I probably would have found it more interesting. 

Would it be possible to mention in the intro when the story was written?

I had my suspicions that this was an older story with the moving sidewalks, rampant New York crime, and computers that are smart enough to make witty conversation, but still say "negative" instead of "no."  But the mention of the Iraq conflict threw me off.   



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Reply #47 on: December 12, 2007, 04:43:18 PM
This discussion has brought up a point that, while not directly connected to the story, triggered a thought.  What if (and I'm not saying Mr.Resnik had this in mind at all) our main charactor wasn't a serial murderer?  Let's say he was grade A evil, but not murderous.  A serial rapists of nine year old girls or something almost as bad.  This is what gets him erased. 

He spends all of his time trying to figure out why he was erased, then he gets attacked and some kind of self-preservation response kicks in.  He figures he must have been a murderer.  He starts working on this idea so hard he believes it has to be true.  Throw in a little schizophrenia and, bam, now we have a serial murderer.


Or if it was the story of the con who stole a pizza and was erased for his 3rd strike, only in his search to figure out why he was erased, he becomes more of a criminal than he started out.  (I don't remember if you can be erased for theft in this story or not.)

That's kind of what I was going for except I figured you had to be really bad to get erased.  I was trying to come up with something that was an erasable offense, but not murder.  I was also thinking about an arsonist who thought the building was empty, but there was really seven teenagers drinking beer.  That probably would have been a better example.

I think that's a cool idea, Russel.  If you have to be an evil bastard wouldn't you rather be a bad ass ninja assassin than a pedophile or a blundering arsonist?  And since he is an erasure, being an evil bastard is the only hard fact he knows about himself.  As long as this guy is making up a past for himself he could have fabricated the doctor, too.  The doctor serves the function of verifying that our guy is in fact a bad ass ninja assassin, then he is conveniently removed.

Oh!  I didn't even think of the doctor as being a delusion.  Maybe this is what Resnick had in mind.  Probably not.



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Reply #48 on: December 12, 2007, 06:40:29 PM
And since he is an erasure, being an evil bastard is the only hard fact he knows about himself.

I hadn't thought of this, but now that you say it I see this idea as the central theme of the story. It's about the consequences of that fact.

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Reply #49 on: December 13, 2007, 12:52:24 AM

Would it be possible to mention in the intro when the story was written?

I've often wanted this.  I think the original publication date is relevant to my enjoyment of the stories.  Especially when they're "near future" SF, and that future is now upon us or past.  Or if the setting is "now" but that unspecified "now" is the 70's. 

And yes, I'm going to view the writing with a different eye it was a new idea at the time, even if it's been done to death today...