Is SF getting more conservative?

[wakela]

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/is-science-fiction-getting-more-conservative/

I thought SF was getting more liberal if anything, but I don't have a strong reaction, either way.  But the article has some interesting quotes from authors.  They're all conservative, and it's a right-leaning site, so don't click if that bugs or.  Or do if you need a good ol' hackles raising. 

[Swamp]

I thought I would reply before people start getting mad at one another.

I would guess that this article was written to be provocative.  Not that I necessarily agree or disagree with what was said.  I don't read enough to really see trends in the genre, but based on the fan base on the internet, I would say the genre is safely liberal in general.

However, many of the topics and subject matter discussed in SF are really not defined by conservative vs. liberal, but apply to people universally.  Do we have to throw everything in one camp or another?

I think of Orson Scott Card's and how people loath his work because they don't like his views.  I wish more people would judge the work rather than the writer.  I feel some of Card's views and the way he presents them are too extreme; but most of his fiction work that I have read is solidly good writing.  (No, I haven't read Empire because it does not interest me in the least.)  They say he is proselyting, but most people that say that haven't read much of his stuff, or cherry pick excerpts (like from Empire).  It's more based on their objection to his personal views.  He really isn't a message writer.  He has written religious fiction, but it is labeled as such.

But you take writers like Cory Doctorow or Paolo Bacigalupi, who are known for their message writing, nobody ever complains much about them.  Why?  Because they agree with what they are preaching.  I happen to enjoy most of what I have read from Doctorow, but I don't think I have read anything from him where he wasn't stumping about something in one form or another.  I'm not complaining.  Like I said, I like his stuff, too (though he will ramble occasionally).  And I am sure if I met either of them, I would like them.

Of course, all writers are influenced by their life and outlook, but from what I have noticed, Card stays more true to his characters than he does any message.

ETA: If someone makes a decision not to support Card financially because they differ with him, I understand that, but what I don't like is people criticizing his writing based on their opinion of him personally.

[Talia]

I imagine any genre can be said to be getting more or less one way or another, depending on who you ask, and what your personal agenda is.

[Boggled Coriander]

I'm going to stop myself from saying what I think of Card, because around 2004 I made the decision to stop reading anything nonfiction he put out, so anything I say now will be based on years-old memories, and that's not fair. 

I really dislike the human urge to create arbitrary categories of Liberal and Conservative, and then pretend that it is a natural dichotomy.  Maybe I've just been exposed to too much American political drivel.  Cable TV news is bad for the soul.  There's no reason in the world why laissez-faire economics and religiously-based social views should end up on the same side of the dichotomy, for example, except historical accident.

There's also the fact that there's a lot of subjectivity in how people perceive political views in fiction.  Not long ago Jo Walton reviewed Vernor Vinge's A Deepness in the Sky for Tor.com.  (One of my all-time favorite long SF novels.) 

Walton stays away from politics in her review, but two of the commenters insist that the book is a preachy libertarian tract.  I tend to be pretty sensitive to politics in fiction, to the point where I often imagine a political message where the author probably intended none.  But if Vinge intended the bad guys in Deepness to represent "the ineluctable end-result of redistributive liberalism" (to quote one commenter), it went right over my head. 

The bad guys in Deepness maintain vast arrays of hard-working slaves to do their dull boring work for them, and the two main villains are both men who like to torture and abuse women for their own sexual satisfaction.  If Vinge intended for us to read about these guys and go, "Aha! Liberals!", then quite frankly he needs professional help.

So yeah, I'm deeply suspicious of any attempt to divine the politics of any work of fiction, and then place the work on a continuum of liberal - conservative politics.

I'll admit that I haven't read the PJM piece linked to above.  I probably won't, unless the comments on this thread convince me that I need to.

[Anarkey]

This is a derail.  I apologize in advance, wakela.

Boggled, have you taken the political compass test?  I find it's a - more global in perspective, less insular and b - a better way to think about people's politics since it's cartesian and lets people slide along both an economic and social axis.  Also, kind of cool seeing what famous world politician you group with.  

The explanation for the test is here.  The test itself, here.  

Let me know how you turn out!  

[stePH]

Heavy-handed message fiction doesn't get much more heavy-handed than Sheri S. Tepper. But I happen to somewhat align with her feminist, anti-authoritarian views, so being beat over the head with it doesn't bother me as much as it might some others.

[DKT]

Amusingly, the authors interviewed seem ambivalent about whether SF is actually getting more conservative (or not).

I suspect whether or not SF is getting more conservative or liberal depends on which author and or website you're reading.

I haven't read any of Card's more recent novels (I think the last was Enchantment). But I recently reread Ender's Game and wow. That book still totally kicks ass.

FWIW, Swamp, I've definitely heard/read people spew all sorts of venom about Doctorow's stories being too preachy, etc. There are lots of people out there who don't agree with him. Ditto Bacigalupi, although I haven't seen as strong of a response to his work (maybe because there's not as many of them?) I have seen people complain about Bacigalupi's "squishy science."

All that said, I suspect it's easier to read preachy people you agree with than preachy people you don't

[Boggled Coriander]

I suspect whether or not SF is getting more conservative or liberal depends on which author and or website you're reading.

All that said, I suspect it's easier to read preachy people you agree with than preachy people you don't

I agree with DKT.

Just to clarify my cryptic comments above, I've enjoyed all that I've read of Card's fiction, and I largely agree with Swamp's post above.

[stePH]

My favorite Card novel is Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus. But Ender's Game is a pretty close number two. (Just Ender's Game, not the sequels, and don't even talk to me about Ender's Shadow.)

[CryptoMe]

This is a derail.  I apologize in advance, wakela.

Boggled, have you taken the political compass test?  I find it's a - more global in perspective, less insular and b - a better way to think about people's politics since it's cartesian and lets people slide along both an economic and social axis.  Also, kind of cool seeing what famous world politician you group with.  

The explanation for the test is here.  The test itself, here.  

Let me know how you turn out!  

Thanks for that link Anarkey.
I am highly entertained to report that I fall smack-dab in the middle of the left-libertarian quadrant, right beside the Dalai Lama. This is so entertaining because, while I greatly respect the Dalai Lama, I would have *never* thought my philosophies are so similar to his.  I am sure my actions are no-where near as beneficent .

[Listener]

I haven't noticed a conservative swing in SF writing so much as many of the classic authors are getting on in years and older folks tend to swing toward the conservative end of the spectrum -- often because they now have enough money to say "I don't want the government taking more of my money". This is a vast generalization, I know, but I used to work in talk radio and have encountered these people.

As someone who is a conservative-leaning libertarian, I find myself getting extremely annoyed by authors, musicians, actors, and filmmakers using their fame to proselytize their ideas outside of their art. If your music is about rebelling against the government or your writing supports a communist ideal, that's fine, because that's your art. I may not agree with your ideas, but I like your art, so I'll go ahead and ignore your personal political leanings and your soundbites on CNN and simply enjoy what you have created.

Example: my favorite band, Counting Crows, swings pretty liberal. That's fine. I still love their music.

Example: Connie Willis admitted on StarShipSofa that she is extremely liberal. That's fine. Her writing is great.

Example: Adam Baldwin has said some pretty stupid conservative-leaning stuff that puts him pretty close to the Palin-ites. That's fine. I can still enjoy him as an actor.

(I can't think of any Directors right now, or I'd throw one in.)

I haven't read any of the Ender series (I suppose I ought to remedy that; maybe there's a compendium on Kindle/iBooks/GBooks that I can get cheaply), but I doubt the fact that I probably disagree with at least half of Card's opinions won't detract from my enjoyment of his writing (if it turns out that I enjoy it).

[stePH]

I haven't read any of the Ender series (I suppose I ought to remedy that; maybe there's a compendium on Kindle/iBooks/GBooks that I can get cheaply), but I doubt the fact that I probably disagree with at least half of Card's opinions won't detract from my enjoyment of his writing (if it turns out that I enjoy it).

It's not Card's politics that bother me, so much as the fact that he's a jackass homophobe.

[Swamp]

Amusingly, the authors interviewed seem ambivalent about whether SF is actually getting more conservative (or not).

That is kind of funny.  The writer of the article thought they saw a trend/angle for their story so they rounded up a bunch of conservative writers.  Then they just kind shrug their shoulders and say "eh, maybe".  Except for Card, he has to blow it up and bring himself to the center and say "I'm their devil."  That's the crap that I don't like about his rhetoric.

FWIW, Swamp, I've definitely heard/read people spew all sorts of venom about Doctorow's stories being too preachy, etc. There are lots of people out there who don't agree with him. Ditto Bacigalupi, although I haven't seen as strong of a response to his work (maybe because there's not as many of them?) I have seen people complain about Bacigalupi's "squishy science."

Hmm.  See, I just don't get out enough.  I guess their getting some flak makes me feel a little better.  I still enjoy Doctorow nonetheless (not everything he writes, but most).  It was his stories that led me to podcasting and EscapePod so I owe him a great deal.  Ive actally only read a little Bacigalupi.

[DKT]

Hmm.  See, I just don't get out enough.  I guess their getting some flak makes me feel a little better.  I still enjoy Doctorow nonetheless (not everything he writes, but most).  It was his stories that led me to podcasting and EscapePod so I owe him a great deal.  Ive actally only read a little Bacigalupi.

I'm not sure what Bacigalupi you've read, but I'd suggest you checking out his fantasy novella The Alchemist (either at Audible - where you'd get it with Toby Buckell's The Executioness, or in print). It's got some issues (IMO), but I thoroughly enjoyed listening to it. I've heard good things abotu Ship Breaker, but haven't read it yet.

I thought Windup Girl was really good too, but think it might be out of your comfort zone. Very, very dark. Actually, now that I think about it - that's something else I've seen him taken to task for - some of the extreme/expoitative/torturous sex that happens in that novel. But yeah, some of that criticism gets drowned out its Hugo Award.

[Swamp]

Hmm.  See, I just don't get out enough.  I guess their getting some flak makes me feel a little better.  I still enjoy Doctorow nonetheless (not everything he writes, but most).  It was his stories that led me to podcasting and EscapePod so I owe him a great deal.  Ive actally only read a little Bacigalupi.

I'm not sure what Bacigalupi you've read, but I'd suggest you checking out his fantasy novella The Alchemist (either at Audible - where you'd get it with Toby Buckell's The Executioness, or in print). It's got some issues (IMO), but I thoroughly enjoyed listening to it. I've heard good things abotu Ship Breaker, but haven't read it yet.

I thought Windup Girl was really good too, but think it might be out of your comfort zone. Very, very dark. Actually, now that I think about it - that's something else I've seen him taken to task for - some of the extreme/expoitative/torturous sex that happens in that novel. But yeah, some of that criticism gets drowned out its Hugo Award.

I've read "The Fluted Girl" and "People of Sand and Slag".

I'd tell you about the recent interview with Bacigalupi at Lightspeed, but I saw your name in the comments so I know you saw it, but will link to it here for anyone else.  His insights on the experience of writing The Wind-Up Girl are very interesting.

Coincidentily enough, Lightspeed is also featuring a Card story, "The Elephants of Poznan", right now as well.