Author Topic: EP429: The Little Black Bag  (Read 17809 times)

Varda

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Reply #25 on: January 17, 2014, 03:46:30 PM
Can we make a case for why the cosmetic surgery makes sense in the case of the plot? Sure. Does that mean it lacks sexist underpinning? Not necessarily. Considering when it was written and the presence of other sexist dog whistles in the story, and the fact that it's by an author who also wrote "The Marching Morons" in the same universe, I feel relatively confident that my reading is not entirely accidental, especially when you take into account some of the greater implications of setting up the (eventually) competent male doctor vs. his evil, incompetent assistant whose big crime seems to be stepping outside her rightful place by daring to study the black bag's manual and coming up with some novel new ways to apply it (her moneymaking scheme aside).

But as I've said, I'm not terribly interested in the sexist elements of this particular story. We're pretty much guaranteed a little sexism every time classic SF takes the stage, and in this case I'm more inclined to note that it's there and move on to more interesting elements of the story, rather than argue about whether the sexism is there to begin with.

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Reply #26 on: January 17, 2014, 04:12:04 PM
especially when you take into account some of the greater implications of setting up the (eventually) competent male doctor vs. his evil, incompetent assistant whose big crime seems to be stepping outside her rightful place by daring to study the black bag's manual and coming up with some novel new ways to apply it (her moneymaking scheme aside).

I though it was pretty clear-cut that her big crimes are murder and concealment of murder.  From the start she proved herself to not be incompetent, and her innovational idea of how to use the tools showed that.  The bag wasn't turned off because she was uppity and overstepping her station expected of a woman in the 1950s.  The bag was shut off because she violated the physicians oath to "do no harm" by killing the doctor and they shut off the bag as a result.  The guy in the future wasn't even aware of the cosmetic surgery--he was aware of the murder, and that's where the line was drawn that led directly to her accidental suicide.

I hear what you're saying about the story not lacking sexist underpinning, and as you say I don't know how a story from that era could be completely devoid of that.  But I would also rather not make assumptions about the author's prejudices without seeing what I see as clear signs of them simply because of the era he was writing in, any more than we should make excuses for a person's obvious prejudices simply because of the era he was writing in.

(And if you don't want to discuss this further, I'm fine with leaving it be.  But I disagreed strongly enough about what Angie's major crime was that I thought it bore saying)




Varda

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Reply #27 on: January 17, 2014, 04:28:48 PM
I think it's pretty clear we're supposed to dislike Angie before she commits the murder, though. The doctor's desire to hand over the bag for the general benefit of all humankind is contrasted to Angie's desire to make more money specifically through the use of a new cosmetic surgery technique. The murder and subsequent accidental suicide flow from that, and I think at least in part, we're supposed to see this as her comeuppance for her ambition and the "obvious" shallowness of cosmetic surgery itself. Let's not forget all the bits about Angie and finishing school, which strengthen her association with female vanity.

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matweller

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Reply #28 on: January 17, 2014, 04:40:55 PM
I think it's pretty clear we're supposed to dislike Angie before she commits the murder, though.
Yeah, the beginning of their relationship is her blackmailing him. She's the foil. That's not sexist. I'd need to listen again, but I can't think of a single thing she does in the story for which you couldn't swap in a male character. I take that back, they wouldn't have let a man into finishing school. That's sexist.



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Reply #29 on: January 17, 2014, 05:01:33 PM
I think it's pretty clear we're supposed to dislike Angie before she commits the murder, though. The doctor's desire to hand over the bag for the general benefit of all humankind is contrasted to Angie's desire to make more money specifically through the use of a new cosmetic surgery technique. The murder and subsequent accidental suicide flow from that, and I think at least in part, we're supposed to see this as her comeuppance for her ambition and the "obvious" shallowness of cosmetic surgery itself. Let's not forget all the bits about Angie and finishing school, which strengthen her association with female vanity.

Sure, I disliked her before the murder.  But I didn't particularly like the doctor either.  The doctor's desire to hand over the bag for the benefit of all mankind was portrayed explicitly as being a selfish act, despite the obvious good for humanity:
1.  He wanted to be acknowledged for it.
2.  He wanted to do this good thing to counterbalance the bad things he'd done in his life, not because it was a good thing.
3.  He wanted to do this good thing in large part because he was old and making tons of money at this stage of his life wasn't all that appealing to him.
4.  He wanted to do this because of the benefits to himself primarily, and secondarily because of the benefits to humanity , but did not think at all about what he was asking Angie to give up for nothing.

The crime that HE died for was lack of empathy because he didn't think about her position, how she would lose everything by allowing him to do what he proposed.  If he had any empathy he could've at least conceived an outcome that would also benefit Angie, such as giving her credit for the discovery to make her a celebrity.  Whether he liked her or not, they'd been working together for quite some time.  Even if he only cared what she thought for reasons of self-preservation, that would've been something.

She, on the other hand, was just trying to live the 1950s red-blooded American dream of financial prosperity through capitalism--she was the very model of an American hero of the time.  Where that went awry was where the doctor tried to force his will upon her, and she responded to his crime with a crime of her own, and they both died as part of that exchange.



Varda

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Reply #30 on: January 17, 2014, 05:04:53 PM
I think it's pretty clear we're supposed to dislike Angie before she commits the murder, though.
Yeah, the beginning of their relationship is her blackmailing him. She's the foil. That's not sexist. I'd need to listen again, but I can't think of a single thing she does in the story for which you couldn't swap in a male character. I take that back, they wouldn't have let a man into finishing school. That's sexist.

Guys, I know you mean well, but I really, really hate winding up in situations where the burden of proof is on me to prove to a bunch of dudes that the sexism isn't all in my head. It makes me feel utterly exhausted. I think there's something to be said in these situations for giving those of us a lot more familiar with sexism a little credit. But, here we are, so here I go:

Association of Angie with cosmetic surgery and shallowness, and a minimizing of the importance of cosmetic surgery as I discussed in my original comment:
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The girl, for instance, was too much interested in money. She had wanted to specialize in cosmetic surgery–removing wrinkles from wealthy old women and whatnot. She didn’t realize, at first, that a thing like this was in their trust, that they were the stewards and not the owners of the little black bag and its fabulous contents.

More of Angie's shallow ambitions, this from her own thoughts of what she has to lose, once again coded in vain female terms:
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Her mink, her convertible, her dresses, the handsome man she was going to meet and marry–

Angie's appearance getting commented upon by the doctor, once again in terms of female vanity:
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He liked the way she looked as she climbed the stairs; neat, not flashy, he thought. A sensible girl like her, she’d understand.

Can we just acknowledge the sexism is there, and move on?

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Reply #31 on: January 17, 2014, 05:06:07 PM
I think it's pretty clear we're supposed to dislike Angie before she commits the murder, though.
Yeah, the beginning of their relationship is her blackmailing him. She's the foil. That's not sexist. I'd need to listen again, but I can't think of a single thing she does in the story for which you couldn't swap in a male character. I take that back, they wouldn't have let a man into finishing school. That's sexist.

Yeah, I can see how the finishing school detail could be sexist--it would've been expected at the time for a women working with the public.

I don't think that Angie could have been a man without other changes or changes in implications.  I think that the reason that the doctor got murdered is because he assumed (despite his history with her) that he could make a decision and she would have to accept it because she's a woman.  If she had been a man, then I suspect he would've made that decision with more thought about the resistance he would get.



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Reply #32 on: January 17, 2014, 05:10:19 PM
Guys, I know you mean well, but I really, really hate winding up in situations where the burden of proof is on me to prove to a bunch of dudes that the sexism isn't all in my head. It makes me feel utterly exhausted. I think there's something to be said in these situations for giving those of us a lot more familiar with sexism a little credit.

Fair enough.  I am interested in trying to understand your perspective, but I hear that the conversation is stressing you out, and I will leave it alone.



matweller

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Reply #33 on: January 17, 2014, 07:46:40 PM
Of course, you're right. As I stated in the thread for Heart of Joy, I do realize that my statement is made standing in a pool of white male privilege and that the failing is probably mine.

As a privileged white male, I'm going to opt to be enraged that it shows all poor people as greedy and too stupid to know what to do with a good thing when it comes to them.



Varda

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Reply #34 on: January 17, 2014, 10:11:18 PM
Mat, Unblinking: you guys are class acts. :) Many thanks.

And white dudes have their own POOL?! And you can post to the forums while standing in it? What, is it like one of those swim-up bars they have at fancy resorts or something?  ;)

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Devoted135

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Reply #35 on: January 20, 2014, 07:08:54 PM
*awkwardly strolls in amongst the spirited discussion* Wow, you guys (and here I'm using the male version of this word, not the group inclusive usage) turned Varda's molehill into a small mountain! Glad to see it worked out in the end.


I liked this story and (as always) appreciated the opportunity to hear another classic SF story that I've never even heard of. I'll also second the appreciation for both the reading and the subtle sound effects. Really helped navigate all of the transitions!

Stories that predict the utter debasement of humanity always make me squirm because it's simply too terrible to think about. However, I liked how the tension of that was portrayed here. May humanity never go down this particular path...



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Reply #36 on: January 20, 2014, 07:46:15 PM
Quote
*awkwardly strolls in amongst the spirited discussion* Wow, you guys (and here I'm using the male version of this word, not the group inclusive usage) turned Varda's molehill into a small mountain! Glad to see it worked out in the end.

I do find it awkward in turn to have someone make comments publicly directed toward me about my part of a conversation which I've agreed to not continue in the same location where I've agreed not to continue it.  I do want to stress that I wasn't trying to be confrontational or dismissive.  I was just going for the usual pedantic, loquacious, philosophical rant like we were enjoying over in the Scry thread.  I understand that the specific subject material was the reason for the difference, and will do my best to keep that in mind in the future.  Can we leave it at that?

Stories that predict the utter debasement of humanity always make me squirm because it's simply too terrible to think about. However, I liked how the tension of that was portrayed here. May humanity never go down this particular path...

*shrug*  I can imagine much worse futures, many of which are probably more likely than this one.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 07:48:39 PM by Unblinking »



HueItzcoatl

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Reply #37 on: January 20, 2014, 08:30:31 PM
Of course, you're right. As I stated in the thread for Heart of Joy, I do realize that my statement is made standing in a pool of white male privilege and that the failing is probably mine.

As a privileged white male, I'm going to opt to be enraged that it shows all poor people as greedy and too stupid to know what to do with a good thing when it comes to them.

As a non white, I didn't find that part of the story offensive at all. I've met my fair share of people that act like she did, and it's easy for me to know that she's not the norm. My parents are living proof having been born in rural Mexico. ((Well my mother anyway))

I think it sticks out more to people that may not have had the experience. When it's already part of your life experience it doesn't really register.

It's not that I can't see the line, it's merely that I burned it away when I was 5...


Devoted135

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Reply #38 on: January 21, 2014, 03:24:00 AM
Quote
*awkwardly strolls in amongst the spirited discussion* Wow, you guys (and here I'm using the male version of this word, not the group inclusive usage) turned Varda's molehill into a small mountain! Glad to see it worked out in the end.

I do find it awkward in turn to have someone make comments publicly directed toward me about my part of a conversation which I've agreed to not continue in the same location where I've agreed not to continue it.  I do want to stress that I wasn't trying to be confrontational or dismissive.  I was just going for the usual pedantic, loquacious, philosophical rant like we were enjoying over in the Scry thread.  I understand that the specific subject material was the reason for the difference, and will do my best to keep that in mind in the future.  Can we leave it at that?

I apologize, no offense was intended.



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Reply #39 on: January 21, 2014, 03:56:55 AM
Quote
*awkwardly strolls in amongst the spirited discussion* Wow, you guys (and here I'm using the male version of this word, not the group inclusive usage) turned Varda's molehill into a small mountain! Glad to see it worked out in the end.

I do find it awkward in turn to have someone make comments publicly directed toward me about my part of a conversation which I've agreed to not continue in the same location where I've agreed not to continue it.  I do want to stress that I wasn't trying to be confrontational or dismissive.  I was just going for the usual pedantic, loquacious, philosophical rant like we were enjoying over in the Scry thread.  I understand that the specific subject material was the reason for the difference, and will do my best to keep that in mind in the future.  Can we leave it at that?

I apologize, no offense was intended.

 :)



Varda

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Reply #40 on: January 21, 2014, 04:32:53 AM
I do want to stress that I wasn't trying to be confrontational or dismissive.  I was just going for the usual pedantic, loquacious, philosophical rant like we were enjoying over in the Scry thread.  I understand that the specific subject material was the reason for the difference, and will do my best to keep that in mind in the future.  Can we leave it at that?

100% understood on my part, my friend. :) Thanks again for being so understanding.

As a privileged white male, I'm going to opt to be enraged that it shows all poor people as greedy and too stupid to know what to do with a good thing when it comes to them.

Channeling our formidable philosophical ranting energies in another direction, it strikes me as interesting how the humor of this story seems to rely upon the base impulse to see ourselves as "not as bad as THOSE people". It's the same impulse you get in redneck jokes, dumb blonde jokes, that sort of thing, where you set up a moronic straw man and associate characteristics of a group with said moron to insinuate that blondeness/Southern accents/etc in and of themselves stand for stupidity.

I certainly enjoy this type of humor on many occasions (including in this story, and I mostly liked "Idiocracy" too), but Mat's got a point about there being something troublesome about applying it to poverty in general (and without Lazarusing the sexism debate, it's possible the sexist elements fall into this category as well, both in how they serve the plot and the problematicness). I'm very fond of the saying that "good humor punches upwards" -- that is, it's funny when you mock people who are powerful, and less funny when you mock people who are already weak. So making fun of people for being morons is fair game, but suggesting that people of a lower socio-economic status are only there because they are morons is kinda like kicking someone when they're down. It's not something that occurred to me while listening to the story, but maybe that's just a testament to the author's craft (and Escape Pod's, because dang if the production and reading wasn't amazing!).

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Reply #41 on: January 21, 2014, 03:58:15 PM
Channeling our formidable philosophical ranting energies in another direction, it strikes me as interesting how the humor of this story seems to rely upon the base impulse to see ourselves as "not as bad as THOSE people". It's the same impulse you get in redneck jokes, dumb blonde jokes, that sort of thing, where you set up a moronic straw man and associate characteristics of a group with said moron to insinuate that blondeness/Southern accents/etc in and of themselves stand for stupidity.

I certainly enjoy this type of humor on many occasions (including in this story, and I mostly liked "Idiocracy" too), but Mat's got a point about there being something troublesome about applying it to poverty in general (and without Lazarusing the sexism debate, it's possible the sexist elements fall into this category as well, both in how they serve the plot and the problematicness). I'm very fond of the saying that "good humor punches upwards" -- that is, it's funny when you mock people who are powerful, and less funny when you mock people who are already weak. So making fun of people for being morons is fair game, but suggesting that people of a lower socio-economic status are only there because they are morons is kinda like kicking someone when they're down. It's not something that occurred to me while listening to the story, but maybe that's just a testament to the author's craft (and Escape Pod's, because dang if the production and reading wasn't amazing!).

Hmmm.... I'm not sure how much I can contribute to that line of discussion because I don't remember thinking the story was funny.  The future where doctors could use their automatic tools but couldn't read was an interesting if absurd extrapolation of tech trends, but I don't think I thought any part of the story was funny.  The future part was interesting, the drunk part was dull, the redemption and resolution kept me interested, but I didn't think them funny.



Varda

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Reply #42 on: January 21, 2014, 10:48:40 PM
Probably speaks more to my sick sense of humor, then. >:-D I laughed all the way through "Paradise Left", too, although that was more obviously funny in my book.

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Reply #43 on: January 22, 2014, 03:36:53 PM
Probably speaks more to my sick sense of humor, then. >:-D I laughed all the way through "Paradise Left", too, although that was more obviously funny in my book.

That one I thought was funny.  :)



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Reply #44 on: January 30, 2014, 02:52:10 PM
I was also in the camp of folks who almost turned it off with the first section. Between the drunk and the uneven levels (yell away from the mic, please) it was challenging to want to stick it out for another hour. I'm glad that I did. This was a rotten little story full of awful people. Truly delightful!

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Reply #45 on: February 01, 2014, 12:24:17 AM
I enjoyed and appreciated this story as classic science fiction.  It held up well enough enough that I could enjoy it as a classic.  It is rather dated (even in the jumpy style and interruption for a newspaper article in the middle), but it helps to picture the story taking place in the 50s as an "X File" that was never solved.  I mean, doctors, black bags, house calls - very dated.

personal comment on length: I have a 50 minute commute to work.  I often avoid stories longer than just because I don't want the story to be interrupted.  And when I am doing something other than driving like cooking, I usually go for a non-fiction podcast because it usually requires less attention.



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Reply #46 on: April 01, 2014, 11:00:51 AM
Playing catchup here.
I love the golden age science fiction, and this was no exception. I don't think I would have read this on my own, so thank you EP for presenting it to me, and thanks to Mat for such an excellent reading.
I particularly liked the humanity-breeding-itself-into-stupidity storyline. I am definitely going to look up The Marching Morons. I too found the time jumps a little bit disconcerting at first (wasn't the doctor named Full? Where did this Hemingway character come from?) but I caught on quickly enough. Thanks for the audible cues, those helped.
Anything else? Oh yeah. Where can I get me a time-traveling nanotech black bag?

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Reply #47 on: April 30, 2014, 11:55:42 PM
A very good reading of a classic.  Kornbluth had a keen eye for satire.



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Reply #48 on: May 14, 2014, 04:02:23 AM
Catching up slowly on both the podcasts and forums.
I liked this one. It was a classic classic. The characters were all a very sanitized type of dark, being dealt their deserved come-uppance. Very film noir. 



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Reply #49 on: May 20, 2014, 09:00:16 AM
I can see this being a classic. Like someone said early on in this thread, the implied eugenics did bother me (much more than any sexism, that I expected from a 50:s story, and got much less of than I expected), that kind of deterministic, genetic view of intelligence seems very outdated, and I shiver when I think about that 'bridge' they had to cross. The story also had a unexpectedly advanced structure for a golden age story with it's frequent jumps between timepoints and perspectives. In the end, it was mostly a story about bad people doing bad things - reminded me of Emile Zola, actually.