His Dark Materials

[Listener]

I'm almost done with the first book (The Golden Compass) and although I don't think we've gotten to the real heart of the matter yet, I can see how this would be adapted into a YA action film.  However, I can also see the outcry against the portrayal of the "gyptians" if they're played with the appropriate accents.

There's even a (NONSPECIFIC SPOILER) "whew, we killed the master bad guy HOLY CRAP HE'S BACK wait we killed him again" (END NONSPECIFIC SPOILER) moment that's played very well.

And I really like that Pullman sticks mostly to "said" as his dialogue tag.  Lets the reader decide how things are said based on context and allows a more individual experience for the reader.

I'm waiting for the explanation of why humans have daemons.

I'll be in Minnesota this weekend (which is why you won't see me at Steve's EP luncheon) and hope to finish the three books before I get back Monday.

By the by, I can stop posting my white-text spoilers if that's bothering anyone.

[Russell Nash]

By the by, I can stop posting my white-text spoilers if that's bothering anyone.

I appreciate it.  I read all of the threads and If you don't do that, I'll read all of the spoilers.  Leave me some mystery.

[Listener]

By the by, I can stop posting my white-text spoilers if that's bothering anyone.

I appreciate it.  I read all of the threads and If you don't do that, I'll read all of the spoilers.  Leave me some mystery.

Well, I meant, I can stop posting them altogether, rather than just spoilering them out.  But if the white text is enough to disguise it, that's fine with me.

What's the hex-code for the post background?  I could really camouflage them that way.

[ctumaven]

First time poster here.  I have to say that the His Dark Materials trilogy is great.  I actually think of it as a more adult Harry Potter when dealing with philosophical issues, particularly religion.  As you move through the series I would really enjoy your comments and discussion on the series as a whole and how you think they will handle the movie adaptation coming out in December.

[DKT]

The movie trailers for it look great -- like one of the better fantasy movies coming out.  Very rich visuals that reminded me more of LotR than some of the other stuff that's out or soon-to-be out (Narnia, Dark is Rising, etc.).

[Alasdair5000]

Yeah I was really pleasantly surprised by the trailer especially as my expectations, given the very public trouble the movie versions ran into during development hell were pretty low (And that's even before we get to Nicole Kidman and her astounding ability to appear in two of the worst films I've ever seen.  Ever.  I mean worse than SciFi Channel original movies bad.)  Looks a lot of fun:)

[Mr. Tweedy]

Am I the only person who didn't like Dark Materials?  As I said elsewhere, I felt that the books went from "wonderful" to "alright" to "sucks bad" over the course of the trilogy.  Did anyone else think they went downhill or is it just me?

[DKT]

I'll bite.  What were the two worst films?

Speaking of Kidman, I read an interview a couple weeks ago where she said the film didn't bash Catholicism, that she was raised Catholic and would never act in a movie that did such a thing.  I thought this was kind of weird, because I've heard the books (and Pullman) have a pretty unflattering view of that religion or just God in general.  I still haven't read the books, and may wait until after the movie comes out before I pick them up, but from what I've heard that seems like a pretty big shift.

[Alasdair5000]

Birth-Kidman plays a woman whose husband died ten years ago who is confronted by a ten year old claiming to be him.  Who wants to continue the relationship.  Lots, and I don't really think I can communicate the sheer amount of lots, but LOTS of standing around in nice New York apartments being angst ridden ensues.  It is the single most po-faced, grim, pompous movie I've ever seen.  Imagine a Law and Order:Criminal Intent episode without Mad Bob.  Or a coherent plot.  Or anything from which you can squeeze entertainment.

The Stepford Wives-I remember hearing an interview with Colin Farrell about The Recruit (Which is actually kind of fun) where he said the problem was that the ending didn't work and went on to joke that everyone, including him, had had a crack at rewriting it.  There are pretty coherent reports that that ACTUALLY HAPPENED on Stepford Wives, that the film changes gear so many times because major cast members wanted their moment in the sun.  It's like all the charmless elements of Sex in the City crossed with a bad pastiche of '50s SF and a pretty clear undertone of how women should know their place, which is in the kitchen and pregnant or at the very least shopping for lovely dresses.  Christopher Walken and Matthew Broderick look visibly embarassed in almost all their scenes.

   Interesting that Kidman's gone on record about the Catholic elements and her feelings about it.  For what it's worth, I'm a Catholic myself and I loved the books, largely because that element, for me, speaks not to a specific religion but to the fact that any body, once it gets large enough, is inevitably going to be corrupted.

[wherethewild]

Am I the only person who didn't like Dark Materials?  As I said elsewhere, I felt that the books went from "wonderful" to "alright" to "sucks bad" over the course of the trilogy.  Did anyone else think they went downhill or is it just me?

Actually I didn´t like them. I´m not sure how much that has to do with the fact that they were bad (in my view) or that I read the last 2 in 24 hours while stuck alone with a dog on a campsite in Oslo. That´ll affect anyone.

Maybe it´s because I´m a natural scientist, but they just smacked of deus ex machina to me. And that pissed me off after such a build up. It felt a bit too ID/creationist pseudoscience bollocks for my tastes. But, like I said, I read them really fast and maybe missed something.

[wherethewild]

heh. Just noticed Mr Tweedy used dues ex machina describing it in a previous thread. heh.

[Russell Nash]

Now I'm gonna have to see if I can borrow these from someone.  I like a controversy.

[eytanz]

Am I the only person who didn't like Dark Materials?  As I said elsewhere, I felt that the books went from "wonderful" to "alright" to "sucks bad" over the course of the trilogy.  Did anyone else think they went downhill or is it just me?

Actually I didn´t like them. I´m not sure how much that has to do with the fact that they were bad (in my view) or that I read the last 2 in 24 hours while stuck alone with a dog on a campsite in Oslo. That´ll affect anyone.

Maybe it´s because I´m a natural scientist, but they just smacked of deus ex machina to me. And that pissed me off after such a build up. It felt a bit too ID/creationist pseudoscience bollocks for my tastes. But, like I said, I read them really fast and maybe missed something.

I agree with Tweedy as to the trajectory - I found the first book to be one of the best things I've ever written, the second book to be good, and the third book to be a bizzare mess. Still, all of them are well worth reading in my opinion.

[Listener]

Well, I finished the first one, as I said, and I think so far it was the best of them -- a self-contained novel that would have worked even with the "open" ending.

The second started out very blah, but got very good very fast.  I liked the way Pullman avoided saying then Ruta Skadi had sex with Lord Asriel.  Very creatively done.  And I was totally not expecting the truth about Stanislaus Grumman... at least, not until it was about to be revealed.

So far, the problem with the third is that there's too much going on -- Will, Lyra, Dr Malone, Mrs Coulter, Ama, Balthamos, Lord Asriel... I like it, but I'm having a little trouble keeping track.

[Listener]

Finished the books.  The third one, after the climax, you get another three or four chapters that felt very much like the last 20 minutes of LOTR:ROTK -- after a while I was like "holy CRAP this book has to end sometime!"

Not that I didn't like the last few chapters, it's just, that's how I felt.

Anyway, I thought the books were overall very, very good, and I would welcome spoileriffic discussions with anyone who wants to have one.

Also, I watched the Golden Compass trailer on YouTube on Saturday, and have pronounced it rockin'.  I cannot WAIT to see this movie.

[Alasdair5000]

The two things that sold me on the trailer?  The airships and Iorek.  I'm very, very fond of Iorek as a character and he had to be done absolutely right otherwise most of the film's back hour just wouldn't work.

He looks amazing.  And there's one particular moment, as a friend of mine pointed out to me, in that first book involving him that if it's done right is going to look utterly, utterly amazing.

So yeah, second vote for rockin' over here:)

[SFEley]

Am I the only person who didn't like Dark Materials?  As I said elsewhere, I felt that the books went from "wonderful" to "alright" to "sucks bad" over the course of the trilogy.  Did anyone else think they went downhill or is it just me?

Catching up on old threads...  Mr. Tweedy, this is something on which you and I agree absolutely. 

I thought The Golden Compass was one of the best fantasy novels I'd ever read.  Incredible world concept, lots of action, hints of heady philosophical themes -- and an absolutely amazing protagonist.  Lyra's an engaging, intelligent, willful child with a superpower: she's the world's best liar.  I loved everything about her.

In The Subtle Knife, another protagonist shows up, and Lyra loses most of her willpower and becomes a total dishrag whenever Will's around.  The philosophy started to lose some traction as they dwelled on it and threw some talking heads in just to explain it; and there were some world ideas that were, matched up against the world of The Golden Compass, fairly cornball.  At best it was okay.

The Amber Spyglass was atrocious.  Here, I'll do the white space trick: how you could possibly end a trilogy with a war against God and make it boring... I was flabbergasted.  And terribly, terribly disappointed.

I'm sure all three will become movies, and who knows: they might pull an Order of the Phoenix trick for the third one and make the movie better than the book.  I hope so.  But in any case -- no, Mr. Tweedy.  You're not the only one.

[DDog]

I LOVED The Golden Compass. I got it from a friend for something like my eleventh birthday and my mother took it away from me because the flap said something about "hideous experiments on children" and she didn't approve. So I checked it out of the library, and she took that one away from me too. I finished it in bursts while she was out of the house. I read the others as they came out (to date myself). I wrote a paper on The Amber Spyglass for an English class in high school. I've wanted an alethiometer since I read the first one.

The first one is undoubtedly the best. I found the other two interesting, but not as good, and I must stress that I was definitely a child when I read them and have not given them another read as more of an adult. Books with child protagonists must have a whole other level of quality to be captivating to adults, whereas most children will identify with other children having adventures for a broader range of quality. Some children's books do, of course, suck regardless.

I was very worried about the movie when I heard there was going to be one. But I saw a real trailer instead of a half-built teaser in front of Stardust and I'm now sold on seeing it. It's just going to be too damn cool. I hope I don't regret it. I doubt I will see films of the second and third if they are made, though. I haven't decided whether I will reread the book before seeing the movie or after; or make sure I read it long before I see the movie, as I reread Order of the Phoenix mere days before seeing the film and I think my film experience was a good 25% worse than it would have been otherwise.

I'm very excited by Daniel Craig as Lord Asrial, and I'm hoping Nicole Kidman will indeed have the skill to pull off Mrs. Coulter's syrupy evil. And Iorek Byrnison better kick ass!

[SFEley]

I'm very excited by Daniel Craig as Lord Asrial, and I'm hoping Nicole Kidman will indeed have the skill to pull off Mrs. Coulter's syrupy evil. And Iorek Byrnison better kick ass!

Have you seen The Others?  I really think Nicole Kidman's good enough.

[Russell Nash]

I'm very excited by Daniel Craig as Lord Asrial, and I'm hoping Nicole Kidman will indeed have the skill to pull off Mrs. Coulter's syrupy evil. And Iorek Byrnison better kick ass!

Have you seen The Others?  I really think Nicole Kidman's good enough.

Nicole Kidman suffers from the same problem many big name actors do.  She can intimidate the director.  She does something half-ass and the director says OK, because he doesn't have the balls to tell her she sucked.  When she has a good director, she can really be fabulous.  Of course I was hooked when I saw Dead Calm. 

[Alasdair5000]

I'm very excited by Daniel Craig as Lord Asrial, and I'm hoping Nicole Kidman will indeed have the skill to pull off Mrs. Coulter's syrupy evil. And Iorek Byrnison better kick ass!

Have you seen The Others?  I really think Nicole Kidman's good enough.

I'm with Russell on this one.  Kidman's either fantastic or utterly, shockingly poor.  She is, as I've said before, front and centre in two of the worst movies I've ever seen as well as, to be fair, at least two of the best (The Others, Moulin Rouge) and one which I like but no one else does but what the hell (The Peacemaker).  If she's on form, then she'll be phenomenal.  If she's not, then there's a Viking frikking Polar Bear to watch so I'll be happy either way:)

[Russell Nash]

I was checking out this used bookstore today.  I was looking to get three identical copies of HP1 so that I could use it in a class.  So the lit-snob who runs the shop tells me how HP was a bunch of crap and that I should use His Dark Materials instead.  I chose HP because it is fun and easy, but doesn't really insult the intelligence of the reader.  Is HDM at the same level as HP?  I thought it was for older teens and adults and would be harder for an ESL student.

[eytanz]

I was checking out this used bookstore today.  I was looking to get three identical copies of HP1 so that I could use it in a class.  So the lit-snob who runs the shop tells me how HP was a bunch of crap and that I should use His Dark Materials instead.  I chose HP because it is fun and easy, but doesn't really insult the intelligence of the reader.  Is HDM at the same level as HP?  I thought it was for older teens and adults and would be harder for an ESL student.

I would certainly *not* recommend HDM as a text for use in an ESL class. The level of the language is very high - not inaccessibly so for a native speaker, but certainly not shy of complexity or subtlety. To be properly enjoyed, it needs a reader who can appreciate the language it uses rather than readers who may find it complex and intimidating. Using it in class would be a disservice both to the students and the books. Harry Potter is a much better choice.

[SFEley]

I was checking out this used bookstore today.  I was looking to get three identical copies of HP1 so that I could use it in a class.  So the lit-snob who runs the shop tells me how HP was a bunch of crap and that I should use His Dark Materials instead.  I chose HP because it is fun and easy, but doesn't really insult the intelligence of the reader.  Is HDM at the same level as HP?  I thought it was for older teens and adults and would be harder for an ESL student.

Argh.  Gods preserve us from "helpful" shop clerks who try to talk people out of buying things they want.  I once walked out of a gaming shop because the teenage dingbat behind the counter gave me crap for wanting to buy a D&D 3rd Edition book.  I wrote a letter to the store owner, letting him know his employees were so passionate about their business that they were costing him sales.

Go with your first answer, Russell.  The Golden Compass is an amazing book, but while I do believe it's technically classed as Young Adult, it's far more complex in both its language and plot than Harry Potter. 

[Heradel]

Go with your first answer, Russell.  The Golden Compass is an amazing book, but while I do believe it's technically classed as Young Adult, it's far more complex in both its language and plot than Harry Potter. 

Though not necessarily the better for it after that book. I remember being 12ish when I read the first two (the third one wasn't out at that point) and after loving the first one I didn't really feel like they were the same characters in the second. Though I do remember liking the third one more than the second, apart from the ending.