Author Topic: Physics of the Impossible  (Read 17246 times)

Talia

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on: April 06, 2008, 10:10:14 PM
I just got back from I-Con in Long Island and one of the programs I made the wise choice of attending was a lecture by Michio Kaku, a fairly well known physicist. His subject was 'Physics of the Impossible' (also the title of his latest book), which focused on Star Trek-type technology and how much of it was actually becoming feasible.

One of the things that most fascinated me was his statements in regards to invisibility cloaks. Apparently these are becoming a very real possibility(!!!!!). Scentists have already invented a material that is "invisible" to micro-waves (that is, the waves bend around it, rather than registering it by going through it).

He also discussed teleportation and how scientists are already teleporting particles of light. What fascinated me about this was the ethical implications involved: to teleport something, it had to be destroyed, then its "information' copied to the alternate location. In other words, if eventually teleportation technology evolved to be able to handle humans, you'd first have to kill the person, then remake them (complete with memories and such) in the new location. All the  implications in regards to that are just fascinating.

Also, and this ties in to the recent EP story 'The Big Guy,' he discussed how science has linked emotions as being vital to intelligence. He suggested that without the ability to feel, you could not have a truly intelligent robot. He also stated that even the most intelligent robot around today is pretty much dumb as a brick.

It was all pretty neat, I'd suggest checking out his book if you're as fascinated by futuristic technology as I am.



Darwinist

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Reply #1 on: April 07, 2008, 03:03:35 AM
Very cool.  I seem to recall this being discussed in a recent podcast I listen to, can't seem to place it right now, though.  The guest on the podcast was discussing the feasibility of several of these things and guesstimating how long it would take for these things to become a reality.  They also discussed time travel.    Pretty cool stuff.  I might have to check out that book. 

PS. I'm pretty sure Wonka invented teleportation, remember Mike TV?  ;)

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


wakela

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Reply #2 on: April 07, 2008, 08:01:52 AM
Yes, but on Mike TV or "Wonkavision, IIRC" everything came out so small.  It would be interesting if certain members of the population decided it was worth being six inches tall for the ability to teleport.  You would have a class of CEOs and diplomats that would all be 6 inches tall.

Yeah, I've wondered about human teleportation.  What if it kills the person being teleported and replaces them with an identical person with identical memories.  From his point of view, he wasn't killed.  He just remembers stepping into the telepod, and then stepping out. 



wintermute

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Reply #3 on: April 07, 2008, 11:30:41 AM
Yes, but on Mike TV or "Wonkavision, IIRC" everything came out so small.  It would be interesting if certain members of the population decided it was worth being six inches tall for the ability to teleport.  You would have a class of CEOs and diplomats that would all be 6 inches tall.

Yeah, I've wondered about human teleportation.  What if it kills the person being teleported and replaces them with an identical person with identical memories.  From his point of view, he wasn't killed.  He just remembers stepping into the telepod, and then stepping out. 

That was because the TV itself was small. Use a 20-foot cinema screen, and you could get there life size.

Science means that not all dreams can come true


Thaurismunths

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Reply #4 on: April 08, 2008, 11:08:56 AM
Yes, but on Mike TV or "Wonkavision, IIRC" everything came out so small.  It would be interesting if certain members of the population decided it was worth being six inches tall for the ability to teleport.  You would have a class of CEOs and diplomats that would all be 6 inches tall.

Yeah, I've wondered about human teleportation.  What if it kills the person being teleported and replaces them with an identical person with identical memories.  From his point of view, he wasn't killed.  He just remembers stepping into the telepod, and then stepping out. 

That was because the TV itself was small. Use a 20-foot cinema screen, and you could get there life size.
Forget that, I'd  use a 20' movie screen and unleash your own horde of Them!

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Leon Kensington

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Reply #5 on: April 08, 2008, 01:40:42 PM
I picked this book up the day it came out (thanks Technorama *ding*).  Its amazing!  His writting style is great and he is somehow able to technobabble with making it seem 'like' technobabble.  It just plain great.



stePH

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Reply #6 on: April 08, 2008, 02:40:48 PM
I want a real Handheld Portal Device right now.  I'm in the middle of a move, and shucking boxes full of books downstairs really sucks.   >:(

[edit]
Actually the thing doesn't seem to have any effective range limit in-game.  I could probably throw one portal in the old house and one in the new house, and eliminate the road transport altogether.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 02:42:50 PM by stePH »

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Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #7 on: April 19, 2008, 01:27:51 PM
The problem with exciting new technologies seems to be with the investors and marketing people rather than the tech itself...

By all means, stick that windmill in my back yard!

Yes, I want a great, big eyesore solar panel on my roof... and all of my neighbors' rooves*

I can totally see the inventor of the food replicator that my wife wants so desperately being told, "We're sorry, Dr. Splat, but we just don't see the market potential for a box that creates food out of nothing and recycles all of the waste.  So, we're going to buy the patent and bury the product in our giant vault, right next to the car that runs on water and the Ark of the Covenant."




*Sometimes I really hate the English language.

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Planish

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Reply #8 on: April 20, 2008, 09:58:25 AM
One of the things that most fascinated me was his statements in regards to invisibility cloaks. Apparently these are becoming a very real possibility(!!!!!). Scentists have already invented a material that is "invisible" to micro-waves (that is, the waves bend around it, rather than registering it by going through it).

Hmm... maser-proof armour. Might come in handy.
Also, with microwaves being right next door to infrared in the EM spectrum, something like it could (maybe) serve as heat shielding, even if it's not necessarily fire-proof itself.

Oh, wait - did he say that the material would also conceal objects wrapped in it, or just the material itself? Otherwise, Saran Wrap would do the trick.

Quote
He also discussed teleportation and how scientists are already teleporting particles of light.
So, at what velocity would the teleportation data propagate?
How is it different from fibreoptic cable, or ... a flashlight?

Or, were they not photons, but electrons? (A possibly more remarkable feat.) Larry Niven did a wonderful little essay, titled Exercise In Speculation: The Theory and Practice of Teleportation. (that links to the first of 6 pages of the text)
An excerpt:
Quote from: Larry Niven
Anyone know anything about tunnel diodes?
The field is full of good writers named Smith. One wrote a story using a teleportation system
based on the tunnel diode effect. Apparently physics students are now taught that a tunnel diode takes an
electron here and puts it there without allowing it to occupy the intervening space. If you can do it with
quantum physics, why not with larger masses? With people? The theory looks good, and it hasn't been
used much in science fiction.
Tunnel diodes have been around for a while.

Quote
What fascinated me about this was the ethical implications involved: to teleport something, it had to be destroyed, then its "information' copied to the alternate location. In other words, if eventually teleportation technology evolved to be able to handle humans, you'd first have to kill the person, then remake them (complete with memories and such) in the new location. All the  implications in regards to that are just fascinating.

That was always the "rhinocerous in the parlour" for me when it came to Star Trek technology. If it worked the way it was purported to work, there was no reason for them to take advantage of it, and resurrect any hapless Red Shirts. The replicators use transporter technology too, and they didn't have to destroy food to make food, they only had to have the raw elements somewhere on board to assemble it from. After all, we do not have to have shredders integrated with our fax machines.  I can see the reason why the writers chose to avoid the whole idea of backup copies of personnel, but for that reason alone, the Star Trek series will always be "fantasy" to me, not SF.

More Niven goodies:
Quote
Let's say we've reached step. one. We've recorded our customer and we now have a record and
a ball of ionised plasma. Why not beam the record to two receivers? Now we've got a duplicator. The
legalities get sticky. We could get around them by permitting one, say, one Isaac Asimov to a planet; but
who gets the royalties on the FOUNDATION trilogy?
Similarly, you can keep the record. You fire the signal at the receiver, but you store the tape.
Ten years later the passenger walks in front of a bus. You can recreate him from tape, minus ten years of
his life. But-aside from questions concerning his soul-can he collect his own life insurance?
Suppose we change our mind after step one. We store the tape instead of firing it. Is it
kidnapping? Or, in view of the fact that we have mortally vaporized a man, is it murder? Does it cease to
be murder if we reconstitute him before the trial?
Finally, we assume an advance whereby we needn't destroy the model to get the record.
Shouldn't we destroy him anyway? Otherwise he hasn't gone anywhere.

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stePH

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Reply #9 on: April 20, 2008, 01:51:22 PM
One is reminded of the anti-teleportation song that Douglas Adams published near the end of The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.

Quote
Aldebaran's great, OK,
Algol's pretty neat,
Betelgeuse's pretty girls
Will knock you off your feet.
They'll do anything you like,
Real fast and then real slow,
But if you have to take me apart to get me there,
Then I don't want to go.

Singing,
Take me apart, take me apart,
What a way to roam,
And if you have to take me apart to get me there,
I'd rather stay at home.

Sirius is paved with gold
So I've heard it said
By nuts who then go on to say
"See Tau before you're dead."
I'll gladly take the high road
Or even take the low,
But if you have to take me apart to get me there,
Then I, for one, won't go.

Singing,
Take me apart, take me apart, You must be off your head,
And if you try to take me apart to get me there,
I'll stay right here in bed.

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wintermute

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Reply #10 on: April 20, 2008, 05:48:23 PM
Larry Niven did a wonderful little essay, titled Exercise In Speculation: The Theory and Practice of Teleportation.

Larry Niven always wanted any cool technology to work, even if it meant ignoring the laws of physics. He has an essay in Scatterbrain that makes this abundantly obvious. He got very emotionally invested in Pons and Fleischmann's cold fusions experiments, to the extent that he makes excuses for the fact that other labs can't replicate their results (he describes making the electrodes as "a black art", one that it seems even Pons and Fleischmann can only manage one time in ten). He's convinced that their cold fusion worked, because what's cool trumps what's real.

He also goes on to describe how upset he is that scientists pretend that the Dean Drive wouldn't work, just because it's a perpetual motion machine.

While Niven is very good at working out plausible social consequences of a hypothetical technology, I'd take anything he says about what technology is possible with a pinch of salt.

Science means that not all dreams can come true


Windup

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Reply #11 on: April 20, 2008, 05:57:04 PM

That was always the "rhinocerous in the parlour" for me when it came to Star Trek technology. If it worked the way it was purported to work, there was no reason for them to take advantage of it, and resurrect any hapless Red Shirts. The replicators use transporter technology too, and they didn't have to destroy food to make food, they only had to have the raw elements somewhere on board to assemble it from. After all, we do not have to have shredders integrated with our fax machines.  I can see the reason why the writers chose to avoid the whole idea of backup copies of personnel, but for that reason alone, the Star Trek series will always be "fantasy" to me, not SF.


In The Making of Star Trek Gene Roddenberry discusses how they came up with the transporter: It was a plot device, created because they didn't have a special effects budget big enough to land the ship every week.  Roddenberry later said this was one of the best things that could have happened to the show, because a time-consuming landing would have made the episodes start way too slowly to hold audience attention.  (One wishes something similar had happened to, say, The Matrix:Reloaded.)

Point being, it wasn't a carefully thought-out piece of technological extrapolation, it was a convenience added to facilitate the story. Apparently "warp drive" is a similar deal. Details weren't even seriously discussed until a couple of episodes were in production. They just needed FTL drive to make the stories work.

<<moderators, feel free to tweak that link so EP gets its cut, though the book is available only from 3rd-party sellers.>>

Moderator: It is made so.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 06:09:47 PM by Heradel »

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stePH

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Reply #12 on: April 20, 2008, 09:47:21 PM
Oh damn ... you can do that for third-party sellers too?  I could have gotten EP a kickback when I bought the Orange Box!  :(

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Heradel

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Reply #13 on: April 21, 2008, 03:05:13 AM
Oh damn ... you can do that for third-party sellers too?  I could have gotten EP a kickback when I bought the Orange Box!  :(

I'm not sure actually, it might work, but I don't know.

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ChiliFan

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Reply #14 on: April 26, 2008, 02:23:44 AM
This is all old news! Scientists have been teleporting photons of light for several years already. As for making something invisible to microwaves, how is that invisible? Surely it needs to be made invisible to our eyes. To do this you need to be able to see what's on the other side of an object. A camera could capture what was on the other side then display it on this side, as mentioned in Wired several years ago.

But the oldest news you mention is the theory that after people were teleported, they'd no longer be the same people. The earliest mention I've heard of this was in the book "Mission To The Stars" by A E van Vogt. In this story there are "Dellian" robots (sp?) and non Dellians, as well as the Mixed Men. The Dellians are the results of early teleportation, while the non Dellians haven't been teleported or only by later teleportation devices. If they cross breed then this produces the Mixed Men. I've lost my copy of this book, but according to a search I've just done on Amazon it gives the publication date as 1976. The cover pictured is the same as my copy. It says it was based on a short story. I seem to remember reading that the original short story was published in the 1940's or 1950's. Does anyone on here have a copy of this book saying what year the short story was published?



Heradel

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Reply #15 on: April 26, 2008, 02:54:11 AM
This is all old news! Scientists have been teleporting photons of light for several years already. As for making something invisible to microwaves, how is that invisible? Surely it needs to be made invisible to our eyes. To do this you need to be able to see what's on the other side of an object. A camera could capture what was on the other side then display it on this side, as mentioned in Wired several years ago.

The difference between Mircowaves and Visible light is about a millimeter to three hundred millimeters. Bending the light in some sort of material is probably the best bet for now, even if it's just on the nano-level.

The 'invisibility' cloak you talk about in Wired was cool, but if you were about a foot to the left or right you'd know immediately that it was fake, and it needed a projector. Another problem is that you need to have a display technology that's multi-directional, and be displaying with a precision (both in accuracy of reproduction and in knowing where part of the garment is in relation to another part), color depth, brightness/darkness, and speed that makes it practically impossible in the near future without some sort of paradigm shift in cameras and displays.

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Reply #16 on: May 01, 2008, 03:49:44 AM
If you ate a lot, and got yourself to weigh a zillion tons, but wrapped yourself in very strong tape at the beginning so that you did not grow in volume, you could be your own gravity lens.

It must work, because I have not seen anybody that has tried it.

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Chodon

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Reply #17 on: May 01, 2008, 10:26:36 AM
If you ate a lot, and got yourself to weigh a zillion tons, but wrapped yourself in very strong tape at the beginning so that you did not grow in volume, you could be your own gravity lens.

It must work, because I have not seen anybody that has tried it.
Could you explain that by saying they may have fallen through the earth?

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Reply #18 on: May 07, 2008, 07:16:52 AM
Larry Niven did a wonderful little essay, titled Exercise In Speculation: The Theory and Practice of Teleportation.

He also goes on to describe how upset he is that scientists pretend that the Dean Drive wouldn't work, just because it's a perpetual motion machine.

While Niven is very good at working out plausible social consequences of a hypothetical technology, I'd take anything he says about what technology is possible with a pinch of salt.

I like how the wikipedia page notes that "according to ordinary physics, bees can't fly either"

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Reply #19 on: May 07, 2008, 12:09:22 PM
Larry Niven did a wonderful little essay, titled Exercise In Speculation: The Theory and Practice of Teleportation.

He also goes on to describe how upset he is that scientists pretend that the Dean Drive wouldn't work, just because it's a perpetual motion machine.

While Niven is very good at working out plausible social consequences of a hypothetical technology, I'd take anything he says about what technology is possible with a pinch of salt.

I like how the wikipedia page notes that "according to ordinary physics, bees can't fly either"

Not any more it doesn't.

Stupid Wikipedia.

Science means that not all dreams can come true


birdless

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Reply #20 on: May 07, 2008, 08:38:46 PM
Larry Niven did a wonderful little essay, titled Exercise In Speculation: The Theory and Practice of Teleportation.

He also goes on to describe how upset he is that scientists pretend that the Dean Drive wouldn't work, just because it's a perpetual motion machine.

While Niven is very good at working out plausible social consequences of a hypothetical technology, I'd take anything he says about what technology is possible with a pinch of salt.

I like how the wikipedia page notes that "according to ordinary physics, bees can't fly either"
Okay, we've all always heard that, but is that actually true or just urban legend?



Heradel

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Reply #21 on: May 07, 2008, 08:46:24 PM
The precise dynamics of how some insects fly are still not entirely understood, but saying they're impossible under current physics is an exaggeration.

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Darwinist

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Reply #22 on: May 07, 2008, 09:13:52 PM
The precise dynamics of how some insects fly are still not entirely understood, but saying they're impossible under current physics is an exaggeration.

Yeah, I saw a special about insect flight on the Science Channel and heard it talked about on a podcast (The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe, I think).   Sorry for being vague but I think it had something to do with the way their wings flap - they actually kind of rotate and create more lift than people thought.   The info is out there somewhere, maybe I can find it. 

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


wintermute

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Reply #23 on: May 08, 2008, 10:58:21 AM
Actually, the physics of bee flight are now very well understood. There was a while where bees were clearly generating more lift than their wings should be able to generate, if they worked the same way as bird wings. So a more accurate statement would have been "According to science, bees don't generate lift the same way birds do".

After all, science is all about observing the world and drawing conclusions from those observations. Any scientist who thought that bees couldn't fly would be laughed out of the lab.

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Darwinist

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Reply #24 on: May 08, 2008, 02:58:28 PM

After all, science is all about observing the world and drawing conclusions from those observations. Any scientist who thought that bees couldn't fly would be laughed out of the lab.

The "science can't explain how bees fly" angle has been used by an "intelligent design" family member to point out that there are things in nature that can only be explained by unnatural or supernatural methods.  So I'm happy to hear when explanations are found for all these "unexplainable" events. 

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan