Author Topic: When US citizens get their "W" money  (Read 48981 times)

Bdoomed

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Reply #25 on: April 11, 2008, 07:53:30 PM
yes its stupid... but...

if i'm 17 and part of the work force do i get a check? :P
or do i have to be 18...

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


birdless

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Reply #26 on: April 11, 2008, 08:06:18 PM
It didn't demand a military response against Iraq, though.
Yeah, you're totally right about that. I have no idea if the WMDs was an excuse invented or if it was faulty intelligence. Either way, the focus presented to the UN should have been on the atrocities committed by Saddam rather than the WMDs.

I would spend the money on things I thought were important.  Bush thinks the war is important, but he's an idiot.  I think that fusion research and space exploration is important, but most of the country would think I'm an idiot.  It just depends on how the media wants to present things.  People eat whatever the media feeds them.
Good point, and the implication that Bush was doing something he didn't believe in was unintended. I think he is trying to do what he believes is right, but I don't think he's counting the cost. And the lack of an exit strategy was just stupid. That makes me wonder what the hell is going on in Washington.

I listened to that on a podcast.  Some of that is so freaking screwed up, and you and I are footing the bill.  Anarchy is sounding better and better by the day.

Does anyone know of a government that has ever relinquished power voluntarily?  I was trying to think of an example and I couldn't come up with one.  Seriously.
Yeah, it's one of my favorite podcasts. I was glad they showed not only Bush's mistakes but problems that existed before he came to office. And to your second question, I think there were some in the ancient times that did, but I don't know that "give up or be completely annihilated" is really considered volunteering. Oh... are you talking about a person in authority who abdicated to someone they thought might be more qualified? No idea. None that I know of.



wintermute

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Reply #27 on: April 11, 2008, 08:08:33 PM
Does anyone know of a government that has ever relinquished power voluntarily?  I was trying to think of an example and I couldn't come up with one.  Seriously.

You might want to look at the Velvet Divorce that turned Czechoslovakia into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. The government, in an orderly and peaceful manner, voted to dissolve itself, and Prime Minister Vaclav Havel resigned rather than oversee the "destruction of the country (he went on to be elected the Czech Republic's first Prime Minister).

The British Empire voluntarily relinquished power over the Republic of Ireland, India, Pakistan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Zimbabwe, and dozens of other territories, returning them to home rule.  Probably not exactly what you're thinking of, though.

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wintermute

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Reply #28 on: April 11, 2008, 08:11:12 PM
Oh... are you talking about a person in authority who abdicated to someone they thought might be more qualified? No idea. None that I know of.
George Washington refused to stand for office a third time, on the grounds that it would be undemocratic to let people vote for a president they knew they wanted. Or something. I never did work out how that managed to get spun a an act of pro-democracy selflessness...

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Darwinist

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Reply #29 on: April 11, 2008, 09:26:55 PM
yes its stupid... but...

if i'm 17 and part of the work force do i get a check? :P
or do i have to be 18...

I'm not a tax genius but I believe as long as you made $3,000 in wages and were not listed as a dependent on another person's return you qualify.  Might want to check the IRS web site, though.  Good luck.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


wintermute

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Reply #30 on: April 11, 2008, 09:37:21 PM
It didn't demand a military response against Iraq, though.
Yeah, you're totally right about that. I have no idea if the WMDs was an excuse invented or if it was faulty intelligence. Either way, the focus presented to the UN should have been on the atrocities committed by Saddam rather than the WMDs.
Of course, if the main reason had been regime change, rather than WMDs, links to al Qaeda, or whatever the lie du jour was, people might have expected the administration to have half an idea what form that change was going to take, and how it would be achieved.

Five years later, it's blatantly obvious that they just kind of assumed that if you take a strongly Muslim population with a historical dislike of America and give them free elections then they'd automatically vote for the modern, secular pro-American party, and they've been thrown by the fact that they seem to want to vote for the Muslim theocratic anti-American party.

It's not like anyone could have predicted that, is it?

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Chodon

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Reply #31 on: April 11, 2008, 11:05:54 PM
It didn't demand a military response against Iraq, though.
Yeah, you're totally right about that. I have no idea if the WMDs was an excuse invented or if it was faulty intelligence. Either way, the focus presented to the UN should have been on the atrocities committed by Saddam rather than the WMDs.
Of course, if the main reason had been regime change, rather than WMDs, links to al Qaeda, or whatever the lie du jour was, people might have expected the administration to have half an idea what form that change was going to take, and how it would be achieved.

Five years later, it's blatantly obvious that they just kind of assumed that if you take a strongly Muslim population with a historical dislike of America and give them free elections then they'd automatically vote for the modern, secular pro-American party, and they've been thrown by the fact that they seem to want to vote for the Muslim theocratic anti-American party.

It's not like anyone could have predicted that, is it?
Funny thing is my wife's 6th grade students think Iraq blew up the World Trade Center.  No joke.

I weep for our future sometimes.

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wintermute

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Reply #32 on: April 11, 2008, 11:29:00 PM
Funny thing is my wife's 6th grade students think Iraq blew up the World Trade Center.  No joke.
I believe it. Most people I know think that Iraq had "something to do with" 9/11. None of them can ever say quite what, though...

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Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #33 on: April 12, 2008, 03:51:35 PM
If Gore or Kerry had been in office, we probably wouldn't have spent several trillion dollars on a war where no-one can even define what "winning" would mean.



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Reply #34 on: April 12, 2008, 04:19:03 PM
Funny thing is my wife's 6th grade students think Iraq blew up the World Trade Center.  No joke.
I believe it. Most people I know think that Iraq had "something to do with" 9/11. None of them can ever say quite what, though...

On 15 September, 2001, I predicted that our government would try to use the attacks as a pretext for going after Iraq - I was called all kinds of names by friends and family... much worse names than "granola-crunching liberal".  (I actually really like granola, though.)  They told me I was a traitor and couldn't understand why I was on the side of the "Moslems", and that I should stop making things up.

All because I had heard about this:

On September 15, 2001, in a meeting at Camp David, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld suggested an attack on Iraq because he was deeply worried about the availability of "good targets in Afghanistan."

I wasn't the only one concerned; Tony Blair was, after Rumsfeld, Cheney, and others made arguments like these:

Quote from: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/17/wsplit17.xml
Richard Perle, head of the Defence Advisory Board, said America should take the opportunity to remove Saddam from power even if he played no part in the attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon.

Turns out Rumsfeld was gunning for Saddam as early as 9/12.

Of course, I'm just a "liberal conspiracy theorist*", so what do I know?   :-\

*according to my aunt, at least

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stePH

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Reply #35 on: April 12, 2008, 05:51:09 PM

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CGFxColONeill

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Reply #36 on: April 12, 2008, 09:21:02 PM
I weep for our future sometimes.
I feel the same but for different reasons not that that isnt a very good one but have you looked at the candidates for president this election?
No matter who wins the US loses

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stePH

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Reply #37 on: April 13, 2008, 02:12:02 AM
I weep for our future sometimes.
I feel the same but for different reasons not that that isnt a very good one but have you looked at the candidates for president this election?
No matter who wins the US loses

Yup ... anybody who thinks electing McCain, Clinton, or Obama will bring about any significant or meaningful change is kidding themselves.  The American electoral process has been a joke without a punchline for a long time.

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Windup

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Reply #38 on: April 13, 2008, 03:35:55 AM

Overall, we aren't doing too bad.  If the gov't isn't going to cut spending they need to get their money somehow.  If they didn't take out loans taxes would need to be higher.  Still, less debt is always better, and I don't know one thing the government does EFFICIENTLY.  There is probably a private sector contractor that could do everything the government does, but at half price.


Nope, sorry. I call BS on this.  I would think that one of these days, that particular trope would die based on obvious evidence, but apparently somebody has to say it. 

The most efficient medical care system in the country is run by: The Veterans Administration.

Sloppy old-fashioned government Medicare is administered for about half the cost (as measured as a percentage of premium dollars) of the average private insurer.

Putting a fully-equipped, combat-ready Marine in the field costs a fraction of one of Blackwater's "private security contractors."

And no, I don't have time to run down citations for all that, but try this experiment: Pull out your property tax bill, which (in most areas) covers primary and secondary education, police protection, snow removal, fire proctection, trash removal, plus a small raft of amenities and maintenance services.  Now start calling around and pricing some of those services from "efficient private contractors."  I can pretty well guarantee you'll run out of money long before you've got all those services covered. (Private school alone would consume my entire bill.)

Sure, governments waste money.  But the fact is that we aren't exactly geniuses at spending our own money, either. Consider, briefly, what by now are probably billions of dollars that have been spent to put four-wheel drive on vehicles that will never face a surface more demanding than damp concrete.  Or the one-third of the typical American's closet filled with clothes they haven't worn in two years.  Or the truly mind-boggling sums spent on maintaining credit-card debt -- almost invariably spent for things that DO NOT increase long-term earnings or decrease long-term expenses. 

Wasting money isn't a government thing, it's a human thing.  While it's certainly very important to hold government to account, it's equally important to maintain some perspective on the question.  Failure to do so has led to us turning a larger and larger portion of our national fate over to "efficient private contractors" like Blackwater, Bear Sterns, Enron, etc. 

As for what the government has done EFFICIENTLY.   I dunno, let's see:  Eradicated infectious diseases that were once the scourge of childhood, built the largest road network ever conceived, defeated two enemies that constituted an honest-to-god existential threat (Axis powers in WWII, the old Soviet Union), sent men to the moon and robots to the outer planets, and bankrolled the basic research that led to modern computing.  I could go on, but I'll stop. 

Currently, yes, we're badly mismanaged.  Perhaps electing people who make a show of not liking government to run government isn't such a great idea.  But suggesting that government can't do anything just because it's government is every bit as intellecually lazy as assuming that government can solve every problem.

OK, I'm done now....   

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Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #39 on: April 13, 2008, 04:35:36 AM

Overall, we aren't doing too bad.  If the gov't isn't going to cut spending they need to get their money somehow.  If they didn't take out loans taxes would need to be higher.  Still, less debt is always better, and I don't know one thing the government does EFFICIENTLY.  There is probably a private sector contractor that could do everything the government does, but at half price.


Nope, sorry. I call BS on this. 

(much snippage)

OK, I'm done now....   

Well put; thank you.  If you are asked for citations to back that up, I'll volunteer to be your research toady.  :)

I've been growing increasingly tired of the reasoning that "private is better" over the last few years.

1) When I was in the Air Force, a number of generals and admirals were convinced that hiring a contractor to provide IT services to our large, unweildy Govt buildings would be cheaper and more efficient than keeping all of those Govt employees on the payroll to do it.  So, they launched a huge contract, offered early retirement to all of those GOV IT guys, and forced MicroCrap products onto our desktops.  Oh, and they hired all those GOV IT guys at 150% of their GS pay... and the generals and admirals retired and found contractor jobs... and I won't go into the hell that is "getting any IT support".

2) Can anyone tell me the real difference between being forced to pay a tax to pay for substandard medical care (like the National Health), and being forced to pay a premium to pay for substandard care (like Kaiser Permanente)?  I've survived both, but damn.

3)  Why is it that when it comes time to "be responsible" and "cut out entitlements", it's the programs that actually feed and house poor people that get axed... but the oil subsidies and grain subsidies keep rolling out the door?  (Don't even start me on the Defense budget... which sets all kinds of records BEFORE counting the war spending...)

Anyway... that's just my inarticulate raving in support of Windup's well-stated argument.  :)

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Chodon

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Reply #40 on: April 13, 2008, 01:54:34 PM
Overall, we aren't doing too bad.  If the gov't isn't going to cut spending they need to get their money somehow.  If they didn't take out loans taxes would need to be higher.  Still, less debt is always better, and I don't know one thing the government does EFFICIENTLY.  There is probably a private sector contractor that could do everything the government does, but at half price.

Nope, sorry. I call BS on this.  (snip)
Okay, this is something very interesting to me.  I don't understand how bureaucracy (one of the few things government does well) can make something more efficient.  There are some things government does BETTER than the private sector, or things the private sector can't do at all.  Examples include roads, police, national defense.  They do not do it more efficiently though.  Nobody can honestly say that if a business were run like a government it would remain solvent.  The only thing that keeps government going is they can charge whatever they want for their "services" by raising taxes.  We all pay for services we don't use, which is stupid.

I think it can be best understood as an analogy.  A guy comes to your house and does some yardwork.  You didn't ask him to.  In fact, you were going to do it yourself.  That's awful nice of him though.  After he's done he comes to your door and asks for $300.  You didn't need him to do that.  You were perfectly capable of doing it yourself, but now he's charging you for work you didn't need done in the first place.  When you tell him to piss off he pulls out a gun and demands the $300 or he's going to take you away and lock you up until you pay him.  That is what the government does with taxes (or at least a portion of them).  It's paramount to robbery.

Putting a fully-equipped, combat-ready Marine in the field costs a fraction of one of Blackwater's "private security contractors."
That's because the government buys in bulk.  Also, the marines are MUCH less well equipped than Blackwater contractors.  Marines (and army soldiers) often buy their own equipment because the stuff issued by the government is crap.  Don't believe me?  Check out this forum

Pull out your property tax bill, which (in most areas) covers primary and secondary education, police protection, snow removal, fire proctection, trash removal, plus a small raft of amenities and maintenance services.  Now start calling around and pricing some of those services from "efficient private contractors."  I can pretty well guarantee you'll run out of money long before you've got all those services covered. (Private school alone would consume my entire bill.)
That is only because a) 10-50% of your income is going toward taxes and b) there is little competition because people can use government services for "free".  If they had to provide their own services there would be more competition between companies, so prices would drop.

Sure, governments waste money.  But the fact is that we aren't exactly geniuses at spending our own money, either. Consider, briefly, what by now are probably billions of dollars that have been spent to put four-wheel drive on vehicles that will never face a surface more demanding than damp concrete.  Or the one-third of the typical American's closet filled with clothes they haven't worn in two years.  Or the truly mind-boggling sums spent on maintaining credit-card debt -- almost invariably spent for things that DO NOT increase long-term earnings or decrease long-term expenses.
You are confusing personal finances with business and government finances.  People buy things because they think it will get them laid or make people like them so they can get laid.  People are, for the most part, idiots.  Take a marketing class sometime.  It's really eye opening.  It doesn't have anything to do with this discussion though.

Wasting money isn't a government thing, it's a human thing.  While it's certainly very important to hold government to account, it's equally important to maintain some perspective on the question.  Failure to do so has led to us turning a larger and larger portion of our national fate over to "efficient private contractors" like Blackwater, Bear Sterns, Enron, etc.
Yeah, and look how well inefficiency worked out for those companies.  Government can just borrow more money to keep themselves solvent, so there are no consequences to making poor fiscal decisions.  Doesn't that scare anyone else?
As for what the government has done EFFICIENTLY.   I dunno, let's see:  Eradicated infectious diseases that were once the scourge of childhood, built the largest road network ever conceived, defeated two enemies that constituted an honest-to-god existential threat (Axis powers in WWII, the old Soviet Union), sent men to the moon and robots to the outer planets, and bankrolled the basic research that led to modern computing.  I could go on, but I'll stop.
I agree these could not have been accomplished without government involvement (except maybe the polio vaccine).  However, I disagree they did it efficiently.  I shudder to think of how much all those programs cost.  If my tax dollars were only going to these programs though, I would be fine with it because they are good causes that can't be achieved without the steamroller power of a government.
Currently, yes, we're badly mismanaged.  Perhaps electing people who make a show of not liking government to run government isn't such a great idea.  But suggesting that government can't do anything just because it's government is every bit as intellecually lazy as assuming that government can solve every problem.
I don't see how it's intellectually lazy to say that a broken system can't fix itself.  I just think people should be able to do what they want with the money they earn.  If that means contributing to charity, fine.  If that means hording it all in a giant safe filled with gold coins like Scrooge McDuck, fine.  To say that people need to give up a huge portion of their money to an inefficient machine that mismanages and uses it for things that go against the will of the people is unfair and wrong.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.


Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #41 on: April 13, 2008, 04:26:26 PM

Okay, this is something very interesting to me.  I don't understand how bureaucracy (one of the few things government does well) can make something more efficient.  There are some things government does BETTER than the private sector, or things the private sector can't do at all.  Examples include roads, police, national defense.  They do not do it more efficiently though.  Nobody can honestly say that if a business were run like a government it would remain solvent.  The only thing that keeps government going is they can charge whatever they want for their "services" by raising taxes.  We all pay for services we don't use, which is stupid.

Two problems I have with this:

1) "Government" does not necessarily equal "bureaucracy", and...
2) "Bureaucracy" is not necessarily "bad".

I hear that saw ("Nobody can honestly say that if a business were run like a government it would remain solvent.") all the time, and I have to wonder if those who say it are aware that the government is not supposed to turn a profit, and that the regulations are usually in place because We the People asked for protection from businesses which aggressively corner markets, monopolize resources, and fail to serve the people who are paying for their services.  (See the Pendleton Civil Service Reform Act for the historical perspective.)

"Efficiency" is not the litmus test we should be using; or do you want to tell me that the AT&T monopoly was "better" because it was more efficient?


I think it can be best understood as an analogy.  A guy comes to your house and does some yardwork.  You didn't ask him to.  In fact, you were going to do it yourself.  That's awful nice of him though.  After he's done he comes to your door and asks for $300.  You didn't need him to do that.  You were perfectly capable of doing it yourself, but now he's charging you for work you didn't need done in the first place.  When you tell him to piss off he pulls out a gun and demands the $300 or he's going to take you away and lock you up until you pay him.  That is what the government does with taxes (or at least a portion of them).  It's paramount to robbery.

This is a false analogy... unless the guy coming to your yard was invited by a commission established at the request of your grandparents.  Remember, most of the well-established government services we have today are the result of our predecessors VOTING for them.   If they aren't performing satisfactorily, you do have the right to protest and lobby for change... and I don't deny that it's a difficult and frustrating way to go about doing things, because it does require some education and motivation on the part of the constituency.  (But I don't want to get off on the tangent of how ignorant and apathetic our constituency can be...)

Putting a fully-equipped, combat-ready Marine in the field costs a fraction of one of Blackwater's "private security contractors."
That's because the government buys in bulk.  Also, the marines are MUCH less well equipped than Blackwater contractors.  Marines (and army soldiers) often buy their own equipment because the stuff issued by the government is crap.  Don't believe me?  Check out this forum

I believe you... but the other reason the contractors cost more is because they are not accountable to Congress for their expenses.  One of the benefits of bureaucracy is that the budget for the Marines is established by law, and accounted for; they may get crap equipment, but they get what they paid for, and you can track where your taxpayer dollars went.  With Blackwater, you will never know where your tax dollars went... hell, if they hadn't shot up so many people, most folks wouldn't have known we were paying them at all. 

Sounds like a great way to run a business, though; bid low, cut corners where possible, and hide behind contractual "immunity" when your over-armed, trigger-happy thugs start blowing away locals.

Pull out your property tax bill, which (in most areas) covers primary and secondary education, police protection, snow removal, fire proctection, trash removal, plus a small raft of amenities and maintenance services.  Now start calling around and pricing some of those services from "efficient private contractors."  I can pretty well guarantee you'll run out of money long before you've got all those services covered. (Private school alone would consume my entire bill.)
That is only because a) 10-50% of your income is going toward taxes and b) there is little competition because people can use government services for "free".  If they had to provide their own services there would be more competition between companies, so prices would drop.

Respectfully disagree; what we see happening with the cycle of regulation/de-regulation is that "private" providers (think power, telephones, roads, etc.) consolidate, and *raise* prices until the government is asked to step in (by the people who can't afford to pay their bills any more).   The government in question (these things are usually done at the state level) rarely manages the "business" well... usually because obeying the laws of supply and demand is politically dangerous, and they try to keep the "prices" artificially low until the "business" tanks.  Then they "privatize" somehow, prices go up (they call it a "correction") and somehow, they never do go down.

Sure, governments waste money.  But the fact is that we aren't exactly geniuses at spending our own money, either. Consider, briefly, what by now are probably billions of dollars that have been spent to put four-wheel drive on vehicles that will never face a surface more demanding than damp concrete.  Or the one-third of the typical American's closet filled with clothes they haven't worn in two years.  Or the truly mind-boggling sums spent on maintaining credit-card debt -- almost invariably spent for things that DO NOT increase long-term earnings or decrease long-term expenses.
You are confusing personal finances with business and government finances.  People buy things because they think it will get them laid or make people like them so they can get laid.  People are, for the most part, idiots.  Take a marketing class sometime.  It's really eye opening.  It doesn't have anything to do with this discussion though.

Government is by the idiots, of the idiots, and for the idiots.  That's why, instead of getting frustrated and dropping out, we should be getting more involved.  Take that marketing class, and then start showing up at city council meetings.

As for what the government has done EFFICIENTLY.   I dunno, let's see:  Eradicated infectious diseases that were once the scourge of childhood, built the largest road network ever conceived, defeated two enemies that constituted an honest-to-god existential threat (Axis powers in WWII, the old Soviet Union), sent men to the moon and robots to the outer planets, and bankrolled the basic research that led to modern computing.  I could go on, but I'll stop.
I agree these could not have been accomplished without government involvement (except maybe the polio vaccine).  However, I disagree they did it efficiently.  I shudder to think of how much all those programs cost.  If my tax dollars were only going to these programs though, I would be fine with it because they are good causes that can't be achieved without the steamroller power of a government.

Again, you cite inefficiency.  Again, that is not the litmus test.  War and Diplomacy are both incredibly inefficient - both are accepted government functions - and you wouldn't choose between them by saying "This one is more efficient, so we should go with that."  (At least, I hope not.)


Currently, yes, we're badly mismanaged.  Perhaps electing people who make a show of not liking government to run government isn't such a great idea.  But suggesting that government can't do anything just because it's government is every bit as intellecually lazy as assuming that government can solve every problem.
I don't see how it's intellectually lazy to say that a broken system can't fix itself.  I just think people should be able to do what they want with the money they earn.  If that means contributing to charity, fine.  If that means hording it all in a giant safe filled with gold coins like Scrooge McDuck, fine.  To say that people need to give up a huge portion of their money to an inefficient machine that mismanages and uses it for things that go against the will of the people is unfair and wrong.

I agree that our tax system is horribly unfair (I'm a converted fan of the FairTax legislation) but the fact is that everyone here is benefiting in some way from being in this country.  People like to trumpet that "Freedom isn't Free"... until it comes time to pay the tax bill.  (Hmm... that was what pissed me off about "Rent", too...)

I say, if you don't like the way taxes work... fix it.  But what is intellectually lazy is to pretend that you can take your ball and go home until someone else fixes the system.  We're all in this together, and TANSTAAFL cuts both ways.  Sure, it would be great if everyone worked hard and pulled their own weight, but the fact is that we are always going to be asked to pick up the slack for someone else.  Like all those freeloading infants, and those "useless" old timers!  (Just in case you don't catch my ironic meaning, here: everyone needs something from society at some point.)

Sure there are cheaters that need to be dealt with... but you don't give up the internet just because of a few hackers; you don't abandon the use of money because of a few counterfeiters; and you don't give up on a noble experiment just because after 200+ years it is "too hard".  :)

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Heradel

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Reply #42 on: April 14, 2008, 03:42:27 AM
Ahem, breaking up the few thousand words of text with something completely different.



God you guys are boing to moderate.

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birdless

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Reply #43 on: April 14, 2008, 04:09:12 AM
I agree that our tax system is horribly unfair (I'm a converted fan of the FairTax legislation)…
Wow! I've been complaining for years that we should be taxed on what we spend, not on what we earn! I didn't know there was a national, organized movement towards that end. Though I have to admit that there are probably some backlashes to this system that I'm unaware of. Does anyone know where I can find out the pros and con's spelled out simply and objectively?



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Reply #44 on: April 14, 2008, 03:25:09 PM
I did some serious thinking about this thread yesterday to determine the real, true, root cause of the problems I see in government.  I came to the following conclusion: government isn't the problem, it's the people that put them in place.

A perfect example is Detroit's mayor, Kwame Kilpatrick.  He is a neoptist, liar, and an adulterer.  Not attributes that make a good leader, but people still voted for him.  THAT is my problem.  People put these terrible leaders in positions of power and as long as they are fat, dumb, and happy they're okay with negligent leaders.  The United States, as a whole, is complacent.  More people need to be activists for their causes, and need to strive to be well-informed.  Nobody seems to care (present company excepted) as long as they can watch their stories and get to McDonald's.

In response to TAD's comment that I need to do something about the issues, I want to point out that I do.  I am a member of the Libertarian Party, I write my congressman and senator about important issues, I contribute to causes I think are of the utmost importance like the JPFO and MCRGO.  Also, I share my views on this forum in the hopes of persuading an individual or two to consider my viewpoints.  I don't think that is intellectually lazy.

Coming from a business that is very metric and performance oriented it's strange to see the government not held accountable for their overspending and underperformance.  But TAD is right, it's the people's job to hold them accountable and I'm doing and plan to continue to do my part.  I challenge everyone reading this to do the same and quit being complacent.

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Reply #45 on: April 14, 2008, 04:00:34 PM
A perfect example is Detroit's mayor, Kwame Kilpatrick.  He is a neoptist, liar, and an adulterer.  Not attributes that make a good leader, but people still voted for him. 

How does being an adulterer affect a guys ability to be a mayor??  Honestly does anyone give a rat's ass if the CEO of a major company has a girlfriend on the side? 

I contribute to causes I think are of the utmost importance like the JPFO and MCRGO.

Groups of importance.  I only give to little unimportant groups like UNICEF and Doctors Without Borders.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 04:04:35 PM by Russell Nash »



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Reply #46 on: April 14, 2008, 04:19:09 PM
A perfect example is Detroit's mayor, Kwame Kilpatrick.  He is a neoptist, liar, and an adulterer.  Not attributes that make a good leader, but people still voted for him.

How does being an adulterer affect a guys ability to be a mayor??  Honestly does anyone give a rat's ass if the CEO of a major company has a girlfriend on the side? 

I personally thought the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky affair was the non-issue of the decade and a waste of everybody's time.

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Reply #47 on: April 14, 2008, 04:36:26 PM
A perfect example is Detroit's mayor, Kwame Kilpatrick.  He is a neoptist, liar, and an adulterer.  Not attributes that make a good leader, but people still voted for him. 

How does being an adulterer affect a guys ability to be a mayor??  Honestly does anyone give a rat's ass if the CEO of a major company has a girlfriend on the side? 

Again, it's not that he did it, it's that he lied about it. And then a few thousand SMS messages were found and... Kilpatrick perjured himself, and that's why he needs to get out of office. It wouldn't be that big of a deal if he'd admitted it upfront and it didn't bring into view some base hypocrisy (Spitzer). But he lied, and he lied on the stand, and he kept lying, so his ability to be seen as trustworthy disintegrated. Plus, he's under felony charges for perjury, misconduct in office and obstruction of justice, which never look good on a mayor.

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Chodon

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Reply #48 on: April 14, 2008, 04:41:52 PM
How does being an adulterer affect a guys ability to be a mayor??  Honestly does anyone give a rat's ass if the CEO of a major company has a girlfriend on the side? 
I personally thought the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky affair was the non-issue of the decade and a waste of everybody's time.
I think it is a reflection of someone's character and moral, two things that important to me.  I don't think it represents very good jugement because it is a selfish act that does not take into consideration the feelings or reprocussions of their actions.  That is something that reflects on one's ability to be a mayor.  Plus you neglected the fact that he LIED about it several times and perjered himself.

I contribute to causes I think are of the utmost importance like the JPFO and MCRGO.
Groups of importance.  I only give to little unimportant groups like UNICEF and Doctors Without Borders.
Why do you call them unimportant?  I certainly didn't say that in my post.  I think those are fantastic groups to give money to.  I simply think the JPFO and MCRGO are also important groups.  They teach courses on firearms safety and hand out gun locks. 

Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.


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Reply #49 on: April 14, 2008, 05:28:38 PM
I think he was being sarcastic and meant something to the effect that yours suck and mine are so much better... I could be wrong about that though

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