Author Topic: Fusion energy  (Read 17813 times)

JoeFitz

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Reply #25 on: May 18, 2008, 03:42:50 PM
Before we all swallow the 'electric cars' kool-aid, let's consider that the toxic materials required to manufacture batteries are unlikely to be benign if they replace internal combustion cars and we continue to drive as much as we do today. Consider the problems we are beginning to realize with the disposal of electronics. Even the much adored solar panels require relatively rare, exotic metals which are toxic to function.

Also, keep in mind that electrical power distribution networks waste huge amounts of power through transmission loss getting to your house. It would be like having an gas station in every house - how efficient is that?

Nuclear power plants have the advantage of concentrating waste into small bundles. If you had to capture the emissions from a coal plant rather than release them, it would be obvious which system has an advantage on waste. Nobody fears a "meltdown" at a coal fired plant, however, and no one fears that waste from coal plants could be used for terrorism. Coal is plentiful and cheap. But it tends to be dirty - especially from an air pollution and water pollution standpoint. Anyone who has seen a uranium mine tailings pond, however, would not be convinced it's very clean.

What I would like to see is an emphasis less on tiny, portable power sources and more on practical applications of tested and safe technology. Passive solar heat for domestic hot water, geothermal water cooling for HVAC.

At the end of the day, energy is cheap to most people in North America. While the poor and working poor dread the energy bill, the middle class and upper classes can whine but it really doesn't hurt. The cost of all the gas your car is likely to use over its lifetime is less than the cost of insurance, maintenance and the initial purchase price.

Until wasting energy costs real money to rich people - make it a progressive tax or whatever - I'll keep driving my minivan with no passengers - and so will lots of other people.



Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #26 on: May 18, 2008, 06:06:24 PM
I get your point, Joe, and no one should go around thinking "If only THIS tech would take off, it would solve all our problems."  But getting out of the swamp is the important thing; we'll never manage that if we're afraid of muddying our shoes.

Personally, I think Solar is one of many solutions.  We'll need all of them.  Here are some of my other favorite ideas (All of these and more are bookmarked on my Del.icio.us account):

Turbines on a Blimp
The Sustainable House
Tiny Turbines Add Up
Tidal Generation - Harnessing Waves
U.S. States using Wind Power

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Planish

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Reply #27 on: May 20, 2008, 12:26:43 AM
I think that Weissman was talking about the used fuel storage facilities, not the reactors themselves.  I think the reactors are under enough pressure and can be throttled back enough to not pose a meltdown risk.  The used fuel on the other hand needs to be actively cooled.  Here is a photo of a French spent fuel storage facility:

[snip]

As you can see, they store the spent fuel under water, which has to be pumped to keep it at a semi-uniform temperature.  If there is a power outage, once the diesel fuel powering the pumps is gone the water begins to boil.  Once the water boils away the fuel begins to melt, then burn, then give off radioactive smoke.  At least that's how Weissman described it.
Sounds like a job for pump powered by a steam engine. As the demand (ie. water temperature) goes up, so does the flow rate. A self-regulating negative feedback system.

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Chodon

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Reply #28 on: May 21, 2008, 12:19:30 AM
Sounds like a job for pump powered by a steam engine. As the demand (ie. water temperature) goes up, so does the flow rate. A self-regulating negative feedback system.
That is a brilliant idea.  You should patent that.

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Planish

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Reply #29 on: May 22, 2008, 05:06:38 AM
I'm not sure there isn't some kind of catch, like in a perpetual motion machine. The tank temperature would have to be hot enough to turn the water in the engine to steam, and by then it's too late. I'll have to think about it some more.

Maybe an electric pump powered by a thermocouple, with one end in the tank, and the other end in a nearby river.

Oh. If there's a nearby river, then maybe just a couple of hydraulic ram pumps.

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Tango Alpha Delta

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Reply #30 on: May 22, 2008, 12:12:22 PM
I'm not sure there isn't some kind of catch, like in a perpetual motion machine. The tank temperature would have to be hot enough to turn the water in the engine to steam, and by then it's too late. I'll have to think about it some more.

Maybe an electric pump powered by a thermocouple, with one end in the tank, and the other end in a nearby river.

Oh. If there's a nearby river, then maybe just a couple of hydraulic ram pumps.

No, it wouldn't be a violation of the Conservation of Energy, at least.  Logically, you would simply be capturing the waste energy and using it to control the system reflexively.  The input energy is coming from the insane amount of energy coming off the reactor mass.

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Russell Nash

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Reply #31 on: May 26, 2008, 10:49:25 AM
As a side note.  I have essentially not even noticed a change in the price of gas.  IIRC I paid €1.30 a liter in 2002 and I paid €1.41 earlier this week.  That's less than a 10% increase.  also we drive about 4000 miles (6400 km) a year.  Given my car uses 10L/100km (yes, that's how the Germans figure it and yes, it is stupid) my gas expense for a year has gone up €70.40 over the last 6 years.  Pretty much that's right in line with a low inflation rate.

You know I really hate kinda disagreeing with my deity, but..

The price of petrol when the Euro came in in 2002 was 0.90c (had been 1.80DM before the currency change). My husband has that etched into his brain for some reason. I could give a real comparison of prices over the past 10 years if I could be bothered going out and getting the little tracking book from the car. Because my husband has written down Every. Single. Petrol. Purchase. since he bought the thing. While kind of annoying and more than a little freaky, it's a trait that means he LOVES doing taxes. So who am I to complain?

I do know that when we did our Scandanavian tour in 2006 we were paying ~1.40€ at the pumps in Norway, which was about 10c higher than it had been in Germany at the time.

When I was writing this I thought my numbers were a little high, but since I was comparing to a 300% increase in the States, I didn't think it hurt my point.  However Wherethewild's numbers surprised me.  I thought I could remember prices maybe being as low as 1.19€, but never under one Euro.

I asked the wife what she remembered.  She said she thought Wherethewild's number might be a little low, but they were definately better than mine.  I then asked her how the hell i could have been that far off.  She said it was simple.  I never even looking at the price of gas until I wanted to tell my family to shut up and stop their bitching, because I was paying X. 

When you only have to fill up your 13 gallon tank once every 6 weeks, you really get blasé about the price.  Hmm, I wonder how long I'd go if I actually had a fuel-efficient car.

Side note: All that means that if I use Wherethewild's numbers, my fuel expense has gone up around 45% compared with inflation during this time of around 13%.  If I drove much it might hurt, but it still is nothing compared to my parent's 300% increase.  But I still pay the equivalent of $8.55/gal (including exchange rate), so stop your bitching. ;D



Windup

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Reply #32 on: May 26, 2008, 01:32:36 PM
Myself, I think the day of the small internal combustion engine is drawing to a close.  In addition to spewing toxic byproducts and being locked into a single source of fuel -- also toxic and hard to handle -- they're a pain to maintain.  Think about the fact that you've probably got a dozen or more small electric motors in your house (furnace, fridge, fans, etc.) When was the last time you did any maintenance on them?  When was the last time you did anything to your car's engine?  See the difference?

Add to that the fact that electric motors are much more efficient in terms of translating stored power into mechanical power, and you've got a potentially superior technology.  The problem thus far has been "energy density" -- you can cram a couple hundred miles worth of chemical energy into the space of the average gas tank, while until recently you've had to fill the entire trunk with lead-acid batteries to get half that.  However, improvements in battery technology are (finally) removing that constraint... 



Before we all swallow the 'electric cars' kool-aid, let's consider that the toxic materials required to manufacture batteries are unlikely to be benign if they replace internal combustion cars and we continue to drive as much as we do today. Consider the problems we are beginning to realize with the disposal of electronics. Even the much adored solar panels require relatively rare, exotic metals which are toxic to function.


Materials embedded in batteries can be recycled, and it's much easier to deal with a waste problem that occurs once or twice in the ten-year life of a vehicle than it is a chemical waste problem that is present every second the motor is running. 


Also, keep in mind that electrical power distribution networks waste huge amounts of power through transmission loss getting to your house. It would be like having an gas station in every house - how efficient is that?


I think transmission loss is around 3% for electricity.  Gas is harder to measure, since it's difficult to figure out how many miles are driven to fill up, and I don't think anybody keeps track of how much energy is consumed shuffling liquid fuels between ports, refineries and distribution centers.  Point being, "transmission loss" is not a unique problem for electrics.

The electrical grid can also be powered by different means over time.  Your utility can switch between coal, nuclear, wind, natural gas, biomass, etc. without you having to do anything.  Running an IC engine on anything other than its preferred fuel is pretty difficult.



What I would like to see is an emphasis less on tiny, portable power sources and more on practical applications of tested and safe technology. Passive solar heat for domestic hot water, geothermal water cooling for HVAC.


You forgot "sensibly designed suburbs."  Though the real barrier to communities where you can walk to services and either walk or drive short distances to work, entertainment, etc. seems to be the people who live there.  On a couple of occasions here locally, we've had people living in vast wildernesses of single-family dwellings pitch a fit when someone tried to insert retail along the edge. 



At the end of the day, energy is cheap to most people in North America. While the poor and working poor dread the energy bill, the middle class and upper classes can whine but it really doesn't hurt. The cost of all the gas your car is likely to use over its lifetime is less than the cost of insurance, maintenance and the initial purchase price.

Until wasting energy costs real money to rich people - make it a progressive tax or whatever - I'll keep driving my minivan with no passengers - and so will lots of other people.


I think you're right on this one.  The Economist has been advocating a "carbon tax" -- a tax levied directly on the carbon content of fuels -- as the most sensible approach to limiting global warming and related problems.  You could make the proceeds of the tax a refundable credit -- all taxpayers divvy up the proceeds, so total income doesn't change, but relative prices will tend to push people to lower-carbon alternatives. 

Unfortunately, Americans have this wierd, visceral aversion to anything called a "tax,"  and we'll probably have to experiment for a long time with an overly-complex "cap and trade" system instead.

"My whole job is in the space between 'should be' and 'is.' It's a big space."


Chodon

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Reply #33 on: May 26, 2008, 01:57:29 PM
Myself, I think the day of the small internal combustion engine is drawing to a close.  In addition to spewing toxic byproducts and being locked into a single source of fuel -- also toxic and hard to handle -- they're a pain to maintain.  Think about the fact that you've probably got a dozen or more small electric motors in your house (furnace, fridge, fans, etc.) When was the last time you did any maintenance on them?  When was the last time you did anything to your car's engine?  See the difference?

Add to that the fact that electric motors are much more efficient in terms of translating stored power into mechanical power, and you've got a potentially superior technology.  The problem thus far has been "energy density" -- you can cram a couple hundred miles worth of chemical energy into the space of the average gas tank, while until recently you've had to fill the entire trunk with lead-acid batteries to get half that.  However, improvements in battery technology are (finally) removing that constraint... 
Very true.  There is a lot of work going on with supercapacitors for electric cars.  The thought is energy from regenerative braking is stored in the supercaps, then discharged during the next acceleration (the time of highest current draw).  That limits the drain on the main batteries which would be used for cruising.  Also, if you think about sitting at a stop light an IC engine is still humming along politely sipping gasoline.  An electric car just stops, and no energy is being used.


Also, keep in mind that electrical power distribution networks waste huge amounts of power through transmission loss getting to your house. It would be like having an gas station in every house - how efficient is that?

I think transmission loss is around 3% for electricity.  Gas is harder to measure, since it's difficult to figure out how many miles are driven to fill up, and I don't think anybody keeps track of how much energy is consumed shuffling liquid fuels between ports, refineries and distribution centers.  Point being, "transmission loss" is not a unique problem for electrics.

The electrical grid can also be powered by different means over time.  Your utility can switch between coal, nuclear, wind, natural gas, biomass, etc. without you having to do anything.  Running an IC engine on anything other than its preferred fuel is pretty difficult.
Gasoline IC engines are ~26% efficient.  A decent sized sedan, if using 100% of the energy in gasoline, would get about 125 miles per gallon.  A really shocking statistic that would be similar for gas or electric cars (assuming the same weight and shape) is .01% of the energy expended is used to move the person in the driver seat.  99.99% is moving the mass of the car, overcoming friction, or simply wasted due to efficiency losses.

What I would like to see is an emphasis less on tiny, portable power sources and more on practical applications of tested and safe technology. Passive solar heat for domestic hot water, geothermal water cooling for HVAC.
You forgot "sensibly designed suburbs."  Though the real barrier to communities where you can walk to services and either walk or drive short distances to work, entertainment, etc. seems to be the people who live there.  On a couple of occasions here locally, we've had people living in vast wildernesses of single-family dwellings pitch a fit when someone tried to insert retail along the edge. 
This is where the US really shot itself in the foot.  When gas was cheap everyone just drove to the other side of town (10-20 miles) to buy groceries.  It's not that easy now.  I think a more distributed energy grid would help with some of the transmission losses also, and help save homeowners money on utility bills.  All around a good thing.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.


Russell Nash

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Reply #34 on: May 26, 2008, 08:18:19 PM

Also, keep in mind that electrical power distribution networks waste huge amounts of power through transmission loss getting to your house. It would be like having an gas station in every house - how efficient is that?


I think transmission loss is around 3% for electricity.  Gas is harder to measure, since it's difficult to figure out how many miles are driven to fill up, and I don't think anybody keeps track of how much energy is consumed shuffling liquid fuels between ports, refineries and distribution centers.  Point being, "transmission loss" is not a unique problem for electrics.

The electrical grid can also be powered by different means over time.  Your utility can switch between coal, nuclear, wind, natural gas, biomass, etc. without you having to do anything.  Running an IC engine on anything other than its preferred fuel is pretty difficult.

The last stat I heard was that around 30% of electricity is lost through transmission.  This is one of the reasons there has been a call for updating the power grid.  However even with that abyssmal efficiency, the grid is still a hell of a lot cleaner than individual IC engines.

I plan on totally bypassing that anyway.  My city is a very windy place.  I'm looking at a small silent windmill* for on top of the house.  I figure by the time we have an electric car, I'll have my windmill.  During the day it will power my house and when I sleep, it will recharge my car.

*They look like a single bulb from an old eggbeater.



Chodon

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Reply #35 on: May 27, 2008, 01:13:17 AM

The last stat I heard was that around 30% of electricity is lost through transmission.  This is one of the reasons there has been a call for updating the power grid.  However even with that abyssmal efficiency, the grid is still a hell of a lot cleaner than individual IC engines.

I plan on totally bypassing that anyway.  My city is a very windy place.  I'm looking at a small silent windmill* for on top of the house.  I figure by the time we have an electric car, I'll have my windmill.  During the day it will power my house and when I sleep, it will recharge my car.

*They look like a single bulb from an old eggbeater.
I looked at those to put on the roof of my company.  The payback ended up being about 15 years.  Not too bad if you plan on staying there a while, but that's a long investment for most people.  Maybe energy prices in Europe make it a little more attractive, but it still isn't here in the US.  Prices on those need to come down.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither.


Russell Nash

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Reply #36 on: May 27, 2008, 11:31:38 AM

The last stat I heard was that around 30% of electricity is lost through transmission.  This is one of the reasons there has been a call for updating the power grid.  However even with that abyssmal efficiency, the grid is still a hell of a lot cleaner than individual IC engines.

I plan on totally bypassing that anyway.  My city is a very windy place.  I'm looking at a small silent windmill* for on top of the house.  I figure by the time we have an electric car, I'll have my windmill.  During the day it will power my house and when I sleep, it will recharge my car.

*They look like a single bulb from an old eggbeater.
I looked at those to put on the roof of my company.  The payback ended up being about 15 years.  Not too bad if you plan on staying there a while, but that's a long investment for most people.  Maybe energy prices in Europe make it a little more attractive, but it still isn't here in the US.  Prices on those need to come down.

Just like everything else.  The price will come down or it will disappear.  The electricity prices here are on par with the states, but the housing market is very different. 

In the states the market encourages house upgrading.  In Germany it's more of a one house for life kind of thing.  That's why we still rent. 

A windmill would increase the overall value of the house.  So there is a point before the total pay off point where the windmill would be effectively paid off.

That sentence is clunky.  Let me 'splain.  No, there's too much.  Let me sum up. (sorry I couldn't help myself)

Using taotally made up numbers, we'll say the house in worth 200,000, the windmill costs 20,000, and the yearly savings on the electrical bill is 1,000.  Someone could look and say that the windmill takes 20 years to pay off, but maybe the windmill increases the value of the house by 10,000.  In that case, you could say that the windmill is paid off in 10 years.  If I'm borrowing the money at 4%, the pay off could be in 15 years or so, depending on when you sell the house to take the profit to pay off the loan.  If you would have had the money invested somewhere, it then depends on the long term retrun on the investment. 

Summary:  It gets really complicated.  It comes down to where you would rather put your money.  My car is 16 years old, because I see no reason to replace a car that works well.  My friend leases a new car every two years.  To him the car is important.  To me, as long as my car does the job, everything else is more important.

Same thing with the windmill.  If the numbers show I won't be taking a long term kick in the ass from this thing, I'll get it.  My friend will probably lease another A8.