EP174: Political Discussion

[Bdoomed]

soo... our shitty healthcare system and greedy capitalist companies provide for a lot of medical advances... which they use to get us to give them even MORE money, which they use to bribe and keep our shitty healthcare system so they can get more money so they can rip us off more...


yay capitalism!

[Russell Nash]

[Mod Hat]

This whole conversation was a bit on the nasty side for us here.  Let's try and be a little nicer.  I do like the fact that folks do look at links that are posted and that these links are relevant and intelligent.  (Let's just say we had some folks before who were only linking to groups with "special" interests.) 

[/Mod Hat]

[Russell Nash]

I wonder how many of the Americans understand what "socialized" medicine means.  Here is what happened when my first child was born.

We went to birthing classes.

A midwife came to own apartment three times before the baby was born.  She helped us set-up for the baby, answered questions about having a newborn and what to buy, and checked how my wife was doing (the small stuff the doctors never worry about)

My son was born in the usual way, no real complications.  He was delivered by a midwife with a surgeon and pediatric specialists literally looking over the midwife's shoulder.

The baby stayed in my wife's room in one of those newborn beds. 

My wife was allowed to stay for as long as she wanted.  I convinced her to stay until the fourth day after the birth.  The third day is called the crying day in Germany.  That's the day all of the hormones go whacko trying to get the woman's body to convert from being pregnant to being a mother.  This is the day when the post partum depression most often strikes.

The day I took her home the midwife came to the apartment to check on mother and baby and answer any nervous-new-parent questions.  (Clarification: this was the same midwife who came to the apartment before, but not the same one from the hospital)

The midwife came a total of ten times after the birth.  She answered all of the stupid little questions that you don't want to call the doctor about, but that you don't want to have to wait a week or more to ask.  She checked that the baby was nursing well and that my wife's body was making all of the changes it needed to make (If you don't understand this sentence, ask a mother.  She'll tell you.  It's more than you would think.)

During this whole time we went to all the standard doctor's appointments and went for a high-definition ultrasound once.

I spent a total of 5€ for a phone card.  We weren't allowed to use cellphones in the hospital.  That was it.  I never saw a bill for any of it.  It was platinum-plated care and the thought that maybe the insurance wouldn't pay for some part never occurred to us.

Germany pays less than half of what the US pays per person for healthcare.  This is what socialized universal healthcare means.

[Russell Nash]

Yeah, I'm back again.  Three in a row has got to be a record for me.

[Mod hat]

A note to all of the mad editors:

Stop it!!

Review your post before you submit it and try to catch any errors.  If you notice a typo or want to add a link shortly after you submitted your post, go ahead.  Do not go back an hour or more later and change what you wrote.  Submit a new post correcting what was wrong.  Otherwise we end up with posts referring to other posts, that no longer say what they were being referred to for.  (That was purposefully confusing, just like this thread is now)  Also folks do not reread the posts they already read, so nobody who has read your post is going to read your edits anyway.

[/Mod hat]

[Zathras]

Sorry for any infractions of etiquette. 

If there are specific infractions, please PM me and I will avoid them in the future.

[Russell Nash]

Sorry for any infractions of etiquette. 

If there are specific infractions, please PM me and I will avoid them in the future.

I wasn't gunning after you specifically.  It was a general complaint.  I need to do it about twice a year.

[Zathras]

I wasn't gunning after you specifically.  It was a general complaint.  I need to do it about twice a year.

Well, I'm glad I came back to check on this thread.  I had gotten personally upset earlier and had deleted my account to keep from launching personal assaults.  Back to Extern status. 

I really hadn't thought about the edits, I was trying to keep from putting up a bazillion posts.  Will keep that in mind.

[stePH]

Well, I'm glad I came back to check on this thread.  I had gotten personally upset earlier and had deleted my account to keep from launching personal assaults.  Back to Extern status. 

What is it with people?  Just yesterday on another board ,somebody else said he/she was considering leaving the board because his/her position in a political thread seemed to differ from prevailing opinion.  There's just no need for that kind of overreaction.

[Zathras]

No, no, no, no, no.  I did not leave because of my political views.  I felt that I had been dressed down in public about my improper posting techniques.  I should have addressed it instead of leaving, but I was ticked off.  When I learned it wasn't just me, I came back.

I will gladly discuss the specifics in a less public medium.   

[Russell Nash]

No, no, no, no, no.  I did not leave because of my political views.  I felt that I had been dressed down in public about my improper posting techniques.  I should have addressed it instead of leaving, but I was ticked off.  When I learned it wasn't just me, I came back.

I will gladly discuss the specifics in a less public medium.   

If I wasn't gunning for you this time, I will sometime in the future.  I get everyone sooner or later.  It's nothing personal.  It's just a good way of keeping order in a forum.

[Darwinist]

Well, I'm glad I came back to check on this thread.  I had gotten personally upset earlier and had deleted my account to keep from launching personal assaults.  Back to Extern status. 

Thus begins the third incarnation of "Zathras".

[wintermute]

Thus begins the third incarnation of "Zathras".

Why does that sound like the first line of a novel?

Germany pays less than half of what the US pays per person for healthcare.  This is what socialized universal healthcare means.

There's not a country in the world with socialised medicine where tax spending on healthcare comes close to what it is in America. Add in private contributions from insurance and co-pay, and American healthcare is by far the most expensive in the world. I utterly fail to understand why so many Americans seem to have such a visceral negative reaction to a measure that would reduce costs and increase their take-home pay, just because it would also benefit people who aren't them.

[Zathras]

Thus begins the third incarnation of "Zathras".

"There are 10 of us, all of family Zathras, each one named Zathras. Slight differences in how you pronounce. Zathras, Zathras, Zathras.. You are seeing now?"

[Zathras]

I utterly fail to understand why so many Americans seem to have such a visceral negative reaction to a measure that would reduce costs and increase their take-home pay, just because it would also benefit people who aren't them.

I sat here and typed (and erased) several replies to this.  They ranged from shocked to outraged to insulting.  None of them are appropriate or accurate.

I am trying to find the words to convey my thoughts and emotions, but they all sound hollow.

I must have given the impression that this is all about money.  It is not.  The issue, to me, is not whether or not those less fortunate than myself deserve help.  The root of my argument is that it is not the government's job.

By allowing the government to fill this role, fraud, waste, complacency and isolation from the community are created.  I see no good in a system that encourages these traits.  However, when neighbors or organizations, be they religious or not, take on these tasks, the sum is greater than the parts.


Fraud is created when otherwise honest people hide their assets to receive benefits.  An elderly couple that gives their belongings to their children outside of the legal boundaries is committing fraud.  Why would they do this?  To get the government to pay for a medicaid nursing home.  I have seen the varying quality of homes, and I want to be in a nice one if I need one.

The inspector in PD Molly is a prime example of waste.  Even if he was a salaried government employee, the existence of his job detracts from the program.  When assets are diverted to battle fraud, everyone loses. 

Compacency develops when there is no accountability.  Why would a person leave their couch to look for opportunities if all of their needs were met?  When it's a local organization is helping, they can see the results of their efforts.  As a personal example, I have a 36 year old musician friend.  I recently gave him some money for insurance and license plates.  I wanted to give him more, but it would not have been good for him. 
Finally, community isolation devastates any society.  News stories abound of people that didn't get involved.  Want a good example, listen to the song Alyssa Lies by Jason Michael Carroll.  When a people expect the government to look out for the less fortuneate, the responsibility of an individual to help another is removed.

I do not believe in abandoning people.  I help where I can.  I am not going to give an addict money.  Food, clothing, shelter, a hand up?  Yes.  A beauracracy would either ignore or hurt this peson by giving the wrong "aid".

At some point in your life, you must leave the nest.  I would rather see people soar than peck at crumbs.

[stePH]

Thus begins the third incarnation of "Zathras".

"There are 10 of us, all of family Zathras, each one named Zathras.

Nine now.

[Zathras]

Thus begins the third incarnation of "Zathras".

"There are 10 of us, all of family Zathras, each one named Zathras.

Nine now.

Zathras tell Zathras not to go, but Zathras never listen...

[stePH]

Zathras tell Zathras not to go, but Zathras never listen...

 

The one I actually use sometimes in daily life is:

"Cannot say.  Saying, I would know.  Do not know, so cannot say."

[Zathras]

The one I actually use sometimes in daily life is:

"Cannot say.  Saying, I would know.  Do not know, so cannot say."

The cat in my old icon is Zathras.  He adopted us, and is usually quiet and lazy.  That is until he needs a good "scritchin".  So after he yells at us, we obey and say stuff like, "Nobody loves the Zathras.  Poor Zathras nobody ever pets Zathras."  He tolerates it as long as he's gettin scritched.

[Russell Nash]

I utterly fail to understand why so many Americans seem to have such a visceral negative reaction to a measure that would reduce costs and increase their take-home pay, just because it would also benefit people who aren't them.

I sat here and typed (and erased) several replies to this.  They ranged from shocked to outraged to insulting.  None of them are appropriate or accurate.

I am trying to find the words to convey my thoughts and emotions, but they all sound hollow.

I must have given the impression that this is all about money.  It is not.  The issue, to me, is not whether or not those less fortunate than myself deserve help.  The root of my argument is that it is not the government's job.

By allowing the government to fill this role, fraud, waste, complacency and isolation from the community are created.  I see no good in a system that encourages these traits.  However, when neighbors or organizations, be they religious or not, take on these tasks, the sum is greater than the parts.


Fraud is created when otherwise honest people hide their assets to receive benefits.  An elderly couple that gives their belongings to their children outside of the legal boundaries is committing fraud.  Why would they do this?  To get the government to pay for a medicaid nursing home.  I have seen the varying quality of homes, and I want to be in a nice one if I need one.

The inspector in PD Molly is a prime example of waste.  Even if he was a salaried government employee, the existence of his job detracts from the program.  When assets are diverted to battle fraud, everyone loses. 

Compacency develops when there is no accountability.  Why would a person leave their couch to look for opportunities if all of their needs were met?  When it's a local organization is helping, they can see the results of their efforts.  As a personal example, I have a 36 year old musician friend.  I recently gave him some money for insurance and license plates.  I wanted to give him more, but it would not have been good for him. 
Finally, community isolation devastates any society.  News stories abound of people that didn't get involved.  Want a good example, listen to the song Alyssa Lies by Jason Michael Carroll.  When a people expect the government to look out for the less fortuneate, the responsibility of an individual to help another is removed.

I do not believe in abandoning people.  I help where I can.  I am not going to give an addict money.  Food, clothing, shelter, a hand up?  Yes.  A beauracracy would either ignore or hurt this peson by giving the wrong "aid".

At some point in your life, you must leave the nest.  I would rather see people soar than peck at crumbs.

You can't compare systems when you don't even look at the other systems.  Waste and corruption is less in all of the first world socialized healthcare systems than it is in the US system.  This is mostly because if Grandma is taken care of already by the system, you don't need to commit fraud to get her taken care of.  A hospital can't overcharge for a medication when the charge for the medicine is set by the system. 

This also extends to other areas of crime.  If the poor father of a child is not forced to chose between food and medicine for his child, he has far less reason to go commit a crime.