Do you need to finish what you've started reading?

[jrderego]

Disclaimer -

Please take the following fact into consideration before reading my answer - I HATE fantasy literature, all fantasy literature except for Robert E. Howard's Conan, Kull, and Solomon Kane stories, and even those try my patience after two or so tales in less than a month. My hatred of fantasy lit is documented in the commentary "The Fantasy Haters Lament" available in the archives of The Writing Show (www.writingshow.com) as well. I don't listen to Podcastle (because I hate fantasy lit), I don't read Fantasy and Science Fiction (because I hate fantasy lit), I don't even like the fake fantasy lit, Glory Road, written by my all time favorite author, Robert E. Heinlein (because I hate fantasy lit). I hate fantasy gaming, I hate World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy (1-infinity). I hate Dungeons and Dragons, LARPING, Renaissance fairs (faires), Tolkein, C.S. Lewis, Lloyd Alexander, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Krull (which I read as a kid before I saw the movie also as a kid), Xena, Buffy, Angel, and Firefly (just threw that in there for good measure).

---

Short answer to why I gave up on Prisoner of Azkabanana - because it was crap Fantasy.

Fixed that for you, sir

Uh... no you didn't. ( I see what you did there :p )

Dang it, how do I do a tongue-out smiley??

(on further edit and reflection) - I don't want to suggest that it's crap because it's fantasy, that's not really what I mean. I have a predisposition to dislike fantasy immensely, but there is lots of other stuff out there that's also crap and isn't fantasy. It's just that I thought Prisoner of Azkaban was actual crap, not because it was fantasy (I really liked the film version of it) but because the writing and storytelling was crap and had it been about non magical bullshit, it would have still been crap.

Hope that amends things.

[Talia]

It's gotta be a capital P!

I think its interesting that fantasy works for you visually but not in the written word.

[jrderego]

It's gotta be a capital P!

I think its interesting that fantasy works for you visually but not in the written word.

Yeah, it's weird that way. Visually I really like it, any other way and I don't. I also like ketchup in my tuna salad. Go figure.


Also (I'm in an editing mood) - This isn't to suggest there isn't excellent fantasy out there, I am certain that there is or there would be no audience for it, it's just that even the best of it doesn't suit my pallet.

[DKT]

It's gotta be a capital P!

I think its interesting that fantasy works for you visually but not in the written word.

Yeah, it's weird that way. Visually I really like it, any other way and I don't. I also like ketchup in my tuna salad. Go figure.


Also (I'm in an editing mood) - This isn't to suggest there isn't excellent fantasy out there, I am certain that there is or there would be no audience for it, it's just that even the best of it doesn't suit my pallet.

Which is why I suggested that even if you'd thought it was exceptionally written fantasy, you still would've hated it. Because it was fantasy literature.

[jrderego]

It's gotta be a capital P!

I think its interesting that fantasy works for you visually but not in the written word.

Yeah, it's weird that way. Visually I really like it, any other way and I don't. I also like ketchup in my tuna salad. Go figure.


Also (I'm in an editing mood) - This isn't to suggest there isn't excellent fantasy out there, I am certain that there is or there would be no audience for it, it's just that even the best of it doesn't suit my pallet.

Which is why I suggested that even if you'd thought it was exceptionally written fantasy, you still would've hated it. Because it was fantasy literature.

But I didn't think it was exceptionally written, thats' why it's crap.

[eytanz]

So, the world is divided into the exceptionally written and the crap? Or maybe it's divided into those who can't tell when something is crap and aren't smart enough to enjoy Moby Dick, and those who can and do.

I know that there's a more leeway in these forums when discussing/reviewing stories and books that did not appear in an EA podcast - and I know far worse has been written about Harry Potter - but someone offers a review of "it's crap" and a slightly longer version which amounts to "I hated it because I hated it", I do start wondering if they understood the forum's rules.

[DKT]

It's gotta be a capital P!

I think its interesting that fantasy works for you visually but not in the written word.

Yeah, it's weird that way. Visually I really like it, any other way and I don't. I also like ketchup in my tuna salad. Go figure.


Also (I'm in an editing mood) - This isn't to suggest there isn't excellent fantasy out there, I am certain that there is or there would be no audience for it, it's just that even the best of it doesn't suit my pallet.

Which is why I suggested that even if you'd thought it was exceptionally written fantasy, you still would've hated it. Because it was fantasy literature.

But I didn't think it was exceptionally written, thats' why it's crap.

Yeah, sorry if I wasn't clear there, Jeff  

I was amused by your post because you started out by saying you hated all written fantasy (i.e., that it was crap), with a few very limited exceptions (Howard). And so I think you probably would've called it crap, even if it had been a different fantasy novel.

[jrderego]

So, the world is divided into the exceptionally written and the crap? Or maybe it's divided into those who can't tell when something is crap and aren't smart enough to enjoy Moby Dick, and those who can and do.

I know that there's a more leeway in these forums when discussing/reviewing stories and books that did not appear in an EA podcast - and I know far worse has been written about Harry Potter - but someone offers a review of "it's crap" and a slightly longer version which amounts to "I hated it because I hated it", I do start wondering if they understood the forum's rules.

Wow, passive aggressive much, Eyetanz?

Someone asked why I didn't like Harry Potter, I gave an answer, you don't like the answer? Gee, don't take it personally. I never said anything about Moby Dick and smartness, just to contrast that it's a book that the vast majority of modern readers dislike immensely, but which I enjoy.

My dislike of Rowling's writing doesn't diminish you as a person because you like her work, just ask anyone, I'm sure everyone else here thinks your awesome.

[eytanz]

So, the world is divided into the exceptionally written and the crap? Or maybe it's divided into those who can't tell when something is crap and aren't smart enough to enjoy Moby Dick, and those who can and do.

I know that there's a more leeway in these forums when discussing/reviewing stories and books that did not appear in an EA podcast - and I know far worse has been written about Harry Potter - but someone offers a review of "it's crap" and a slightly longer version which amounts to "I hated it because I hated it", I do start wondering if they understood the forum's rules.

Wow, passive aggressive much, Eyetanz?

I don't think I was being particularly passive.

Someone asked why I didn't like Harry Potter, I gave an answer, you don't like the answer? Gee, don't take it personally.

I didn't take it personally. I am a moderator, and I felt I should point out that your statements about Harry Potter would have not been acceptable in an episode thread. I probably should have just said so instead of appealing to generalities, but I've been marking papers all day and the styles tend to get mixed.

I never said anything about Moby Dick and smartness, just to contrast that it's a book that the vast majority of modern readers dislike immensely, but which I enjoy.

You're right - I was reading things into what you said there, and I apologize for that.

[Gamercow]

I realize I am the odd man out on this one, but lots of people never read Moby Dick and I read it once a year and try to participate in a 24 hour marathon read of it every January (my longest sitting span was 8 hours), so I figure in some way that balances the scales of the universe.

Different strokes for different folks.  I thought Moby Dick was as much fun as a turd in a punchbowl. 

[kibitzer]

Also (I'm in an editing mood) - This isn't to suggest there isn't excellent fantasy out there, I am certain that there is or there would be no audience for it, it's just that even the best of it doesn't suit my pallet palate.

Fixed that for you, sir ;-)

[kibitzer]

Disclaimer -

Please take the following fact into consideration before reading my answer - I HATE fantasy literature, all fantasy literature except for Robert E. Howard's Conan... (etc)

Cool, thanks for taking the time to reply in detail, I appreciate it. I'm interested to hear why people don't like "popular" stuff and I think you explained your frustrations with HP pretty well. It's especially interesting when something is widely enjoyed unlike, say, The Da Vinci Code which tends to polarise people pretty quickly.

On the fantasy side, I hear you. I'm not as averse as you to "fantasy" literature but I do think a lot of it is terribly derivative and dull. I actually don't mind derivative stuff as long as it's done well, but it so rarely is.

[iamafish]

Fantasy, in my experience, is a genre almost as spoiled as Historical Fiction by crap.

There are some really wonderful pieces of Fantasy out there, just as there are some really wonderful pieces of Historical Fiction, it's just that you have to wade through so much utter crap to actually get to the good stuff that you're almost better off just going and reading some sci-fi because you have decent odds of whatever you pick up being good.

[Planish]

For the first 45 years of my reading life, I always finished a novel, no matter how painful, just out of politeness to the author, and in the hope that it got better.

About 15 years ago, I decided that my time was getting too valuable, so I started ditching books if I didn't like the first 25% or so. I tried to read Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, since the movie was passably entertaining, but I gave up on the book after about 30 pages.

Now I have trouble setting aside the time to read stuff I really like, possibly because I'm spoiled by podcasts and audiobooks, and even those don't always get finished.

[Devoted135]

Fantasy, in my experience, is a genre almost as spoiled as Historical Fiction by crap.

This. I love historical fiction (what can I say, I'm *almost* out of British classics), but so much of it is extremely poorly written. If you happen to be looking for a good author, I can't recommend Anya Seton enough. She was one of the first to, ya know, actually do research on her subject and did a lot toward legitimizing the genre. I've read 7 of her 10 novels so far, and each one is a winner.

[stePH]

I hate ... Buffy, Angel, and Firefly (just threw that in there for good measure).

...(I hate Firefly as a film too)

Hey Jeff, not that I'm pole-jocking or anything, but I just wanna say I think you're the man 

[Alasdair5000]

It's especially interesting when something is widely enjoyed unlike, say, The Da Vinci Code which tends to polarise people pretty quickly.


See, here's the thing: I enjoyed The Da Vinci Code.  I enjoyed the movie, for slightly different reasons (The fact it was a film entirely about someone who was clever figuring stuff out, which is a nice change and also, the final images?  The Scholar Knight stuff?  Yeah that hit me where I live) but I enjoyed the book.  Weirdly, never bothered with Angels & Demons and HATED the movie version of that.

But, for me, there's a difference between enjoy and like.  The Da Vinci Code was a pizza, for me, a piece of one shot entertainment that did exactly what I needed it to do and resided in my brain exactly as long as it should.  I didn't like it, but I enjoyed the hell out of it because as a delivery vehicle for a one shot pop culture jolt, it was pretty kickass.

Oh I enjoyed the Twilight movies too.  Not liked.  Enjoyed.

Now, I can hear the internet's engines of derision already starting to power up but you know what?  I don't care.  Pop culture, which is what we all do, what we all swim in, is a massively broad church and there's no shame at all in enjoying something that's a little or a lot trashy.  The trick, for me at any rate, is to keep your mind open, keep your horizons wide.  Because there's some amazing books and TV and movies and games out there (The Dead Space Wii game?  OH MY GOD!  AMAZINGLY atmospheric and cool) and a lot of them sit out past the red line of your comfort zone.  This being why I watched the Upstairs Downstairs sequel over Christmas, which was actually pretty great:)

So yeah, enjoy stuff, like stuff, TRY NEW THINGS, it's amazing what you can find.



On the fantasy side, I hear you. I'm not as averse as you to "fantasy" literature but I do think a lot of it is terribly derivative and dull. I actually don't mind derivative stuff as long as it's done well, but it so rarely is.

It's weird because it's possible to have exactly the same bad experience with every genre.  I have, or had, issues with fantasy and I have a friend who won't go near horror because of some stuff she read when she was a teenager.  Likewise, I have family members who won't go near any genre fiction but will read Stephen King because that's 'different'.  Which of course takes us back to the pop culture delivery vehicle, and what Warren Ellis called 'airport fiction' and brings us full circle:)

[kibitzer]

That's a nicely reasoned piece, Al. I totally get the difference between "like" and "enjoy" in this context.

Oh, and Dead Space? Bought that through Steam, played it on the PC without knowing anything about it. Original? No. Enjoyable? HELL YES!! Dripping with atmosphere, mood and a genuine feeling of threat -- loved every second of it. Well, not so much the repeatedly dying at the final boss. But, y'know.

[tinygaia]

I totally get the difference between "like" and "enjoy" in this context.

Me too. My husband and I often argue about Netflix ratings thusly:
"Why did you rate it 'liked'? It was terrible!"
"I 'liked' it at the time but I'm never going to watch it again."