Author Topic: Oh Noes! Lesbians!  (Read 13425 times)

Bdoomed

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Reply #25 on: March 01, 2011, 05:40:22 AM
hijacked:

Just another story with the number 23.

Last time I was driving in a car and listening to Escape Pod my passenger noted that Escape Pod had the number 23 in another story.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm totally okay with the occasional number 23, but it seems absurd how many podcasts have twenty plus three action in them. I can't believe the editors think that there's nothing wrong with the fact that so many Escape Pod stories contain the number 23.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not numerophobic, but if one in twenty-three stories had 2, 3 or 32 in them, I'd feel the same. I feel like Escape Pod is actually putting in "product placement" for the number 23 because it is impossible for me to see a story with 23 characters without their count overriding every other element of their characterization and the rest of the story. For example, I found the numbers in "N+1, N-1" so overwhelming that I was unable to pay attention to the themes of time travel and such.

Having the number 23 so common in a podcast that ISN'T MATHEMATICAL really bothers me. Do all these stories HAVE to have the number 23 in them?

Of course I can ignore pieces of the story that I don't care about, but I feel like the constant addition of the number 23 bothers me so much that I might have to stop listening. I know I'll miss good stories by doing this, but I just can't stand listening to more mindless mathematical drivel.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


H. Bergeron

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Reply #26 on: March 01, 2011, 05:57:49 AM
I wonder if Charlie Stross or Cory Doctorow has any stories about gay characters, singularities, and soup cans.

This post brought to mind the phrase 'gay singularity' and I'm sort of frightened to pursue that idea any further, to be honest...

hijacked:

Just another story with the number 23.

Last time I was driving in a car and listening to Escape Pod my passenger noted that Escape Pod had the number 23 in another story.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm totally okay with the occasional number 23, but it seems absurd how many podcasts have twenty plus three action in them. I can't believe the editors think that there's nothing wrong with the fact that so many Escape Pod stories contain the number 23.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not numerophobic, but if one in twenty-three stories had 2, 3 or 32 in them, I'd feel the same. I feel like Escape Pod is actually putting in "product placement" for the number 23 because it is impossible for me to see a story with 23 characters without their count overriding every other element of their characterization and the rest of the story. For example, I found the numbers in "N+1, N-1" so overwhelming that I was unable to pay attention to the themes of time travel and such.

Having the number 23 so common in a podcast that ISN'T MATHEMATICAL really bothers me. Do all these stories HAVE to have the number 23 in them?

Of course I can ignore pieces of the story that I don't care about, but I feel like the constant addition of the number 23 bothers me so much that I might have to stop listening. I know I'll miss good stories by doing this, but I just can't stand listening to more mindless mathematical drivel.

All I can say about this post is "Hail Eris."

Formerly Ignoranus - now too big for my britches, literally and figuratively.


DKT

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Reply #27 on: March 01, 2011, 06:14:00 AM
2.  On the flip side of the perceived dislike of stories that involve lesbians, I don't think that people should be discouraged to voice dislike if they disliked it.  You know I'm not bashful about stating my dislike of any given story, but I try to be specific in my response, as I was with this one.  Just so that we don't push over to the opposite side, where anyone who voices dislike of a story with homosexuality is accused of homophobia.


Unblinking, I appreciate your post, but I'm going to disagree with you on #2.

We have a rule on this forum: Be Civil and Respectful. The original post in this topic wasn't civil or respectful, especially to anyone in our forum who is not straight.

If people want to complain about their being too many gay or lesbian characters in EA, I strongly suggest they email the appropriate editor/podcast, because I do not want to see it here. It's rude, and whether or not the Tang! meant it to be, it's also hateful. See norareed's Too Much Heterosexuality post for a different perspective, or substitute pretty much any minority for "lesbian". IMO, posts like this are not welcome. If you want to email me about it, or Mur, or PP, I encourage people to do so.

It's fine to dislike a story and explain why you disliked it. As you (Unblinking) know, we encourage people to let us know what they thought of the story, regardless of whether they liked it or not.

It's not okay to be rude/hateful to a group of people.


iamafish

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Reply #28 on: March 01, 2011, 06:19:26 AM
This isn't a criticism, just as observation. I actually find it quite interesting that escape artists products in general (so across all the podcasts), and actually pretty much all media, that contains homosexuality in some way, often feels the need to draw attention to the fact that one of the characters is a homosexual.  I'd like more fiction to take the approach, outlined by Mur above, that sexuality just is. We don't need to draw attention to it and say 'oh by the way guy, this person is GAY!'. Short story anthologies about lesbian steampunk* or other such explicitly 'different' topics regarding humanity (sexuality, gender, race etc) always fill me with slight unease. It's not that i object to homosexuality or anything like that; i don't really care whether someone is gay or straight, black or white, male or female, I just find it odd that we feel the need to draw attention to is. Why does it matter that your steampunk is lesbian or straight or gay or anything else? Why do we need to make the distinction. When we stop treating people who are different from us as different from us, these differences will stop being an issue.

Of course, this is not to say that stories in which people wrestle with their sexuality, race, gender, etc are not relevant. But unless it's a theme which is deal with explicitly, I don't see why we need to draw attention to it. We certainly don't need to set stories which contain minority groups in their own separate anthology.

*Disclaimer: this is not an attack on that specific anthology, it's just an example i pulled from the top of my head.


Bdoomed

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Reply #29 on: March 01, 2011, 06:23:45 AM
The attention is drawn to it because it is something that demands attention these days.  Literature like that puts it up and invites us to accept it, and invites us to question why it had to be noticed.  It has to be noticed because it shouldn't have to be noticed, if you get what I mean.  You are totally right in wanting something where sexuality just is, but that mindset does not yet exist fully in our society.  Attention had to be brought to women working as equals to men before it just was so.  Same thing with civil rights.  Attention has to be brought to it because it shouldn't have to demand attention.  It SHOULD just be, but it isn't and that is what works like that try to do.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


ElectricPaladin

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Reply #30 on: March 01, 2011, 06:35:58 AM
The attention is drawn to it because it is something that demands attention these days.  Literature like that puts it up and invites us to accept it, and invites us to question why it had to be noticed.  It has to be noticed because it shouldn't have to be noticed, if you get what I mean.  You are totally right in wanting something where sexuality just is, but that mindset does not yet exist fully in our society.  Attention had to be brought to women working as equals to men before it just was so.  Same thing with civil rights.  Attention has to be brought to it because it shouldn't have to demand attention.  It SHOULD just be, but it isn't and that is what works like that try to do.

I'd add that there is a lot of work that mentions sexuality without focusing on it. I was just having a conversation with my wife about how in one of Tamora Pierce's recent fantasy series, a character discovers that she is a lesbian as part of her general storyline of growth and self-discovery, but very little fanfare is made of the development. The variety is there, if you look for it.

That said, we do live in a society where homosexuals put up with, frankly, a lot of shit. Until that changes, we're going to see a lot of art that challenges the status quo.

And, also frankly, we will always see art that focuses on all parts of life. There's art that focuses on the joys and challenges of parenthood, growing older, dealing with death, the wonder and terror of childhood, travel, food, being a lost twentysomething, artistic awakenings, increased social consciousness, class issues, grappling with history, and, for that matter, entirely straight sexual awakening. Even in a perfect world where homosexuals are offered all the civil rights heterosexuals take for granted, there will be room for art that embodies the experience of homosexual sexuality. Just like there's room for art that embodies the experience of heterosexual sexuality in the world we live in now.

As far as separate anthologies go... I agree and I disagree. On the one hand, you're right. It'll be nice when stories about homosexuality appear without comment all over the place. On the other hand, it's also really convenient to be able to seek out anthologies about what you find interesting. When I was a straight adolescent growing up in Brooklyn, I wouldn't have sneezed at an anthology of fantastic fiction role models for young boys, full of people like me doing heroic things. I mean, I didn't have a hard time finding that sort of thing as it was, but there wouldn't have been anything wrong with such a thing existing. Isn't it even better for such things to exist for people who would have a harder time finding heroes like themselves in fiction?

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NoraReed

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Reply #31 on: March 01, 2011, 07:05:41 AM
I actually find it quite interesting that escape artists products in general (so across all the podcasts), and actually pretty much all media, that contains homosexuality in some way, often feels the need to draw attention to the fact that one of the characters is a homosexual.

They frequently don't. You're just noticing it more because we live in a heteronormative society and homosexuality stands out as a result. Skin Trees, for example, didn't really draw attention to the lesbian-ness at all. It drew attention to sensuality that happened to be queer, the queerness is incidental to the sensuality.

I'm constantly hearing this about gayness and it's really a short step from "I wish these stories would just have gay characters without FOCUSING SO MUCH on how they're gay" to "I'm fine with gays as long as they don't SHOVE IT IN MY FACE."

Quote
Why does it matter that your steampunk is lesbian or straight or gay or anything else?

LGBT/Queer people live in a heteronormative society-- that is, one in which heterosexuality is implied as default. This can get really stressful. There's the constant battle about who you come out to, because even if you're "out" you are still coming out of the closet to new people as a constant process and you have to deal with those reactions on a daily basis. Harassment is a constant issue, especially if you aren't gender-conforming in your appearance. Getting hate crimed is a genuine worry.

So sometimes LGBT/Queer people seek out homonormative spaces-- that is, spaces where homosexuality is expected and normal. You go there and you're not a minority anymore, you don't have to worry about coming out, and the other people have gone through the some of same shit as you. There's a shared culture that forms around that and it feels safer to be there.

I know people who grew up in the desert with a wide open sky who moved to places where they're walled in by buildings and trees all the time. They say when they come back to the desert, where the sky is huge and the horizon is low, they feel like they can breathe more easily. It's like a weight is lifted off their shoulders and they didn't even know it was there. I'm sure you've felt like this sometime-- coming to your hometown after being away at school, or settling into your house after a difficult trip, or finding a group of people to talk to who get you in a way most people don't. A part of you has come home, and you relax parts of you that you didn't even know were tense.

For a lot of people, it's the same thing with these homonormative spaces. You're safe in a Pride parade, in a gay club, in a Gay/Straight alliance in a way that you aren't in the mainstream community. When you get into those places it's like a weight was lifted from your shoulders, because you're among people who get it.

LGBT/Queer anthologies are just another homonormative space like that. You spend all of your time reading books about straight people, stories about straight people, participating in communities run by straight people. The communities that get created around stuff like LGBT/Queer sci-fi anthologies are ones that are often easier to deal with because there's a shared cultural experience that people understand.

Plus, the LGBT/Queer communities that the lesbian steampunk anthology ends up being part of never have straight people who start threads complaining about how they got some queer in their prose every time the topic of non-hetero sexuality or romance comes up.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 07:15:59 AM by NoraReed »



iamafish

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Reply #32 on: March 01, 2011, 07:44:30 AM
The attention is drawn to it because it is something that demands attention these days.  Literature like that puts it up and invites us to accept it, and invites us to question why it had to be noticed.  It has to be noticed because it shouldn't have to be noticed, if you get what I mean.  You are totally right in wanting something where sexuality just is, but that mindset does not yet exist fully in our society.  Attention had to be brought to women working as equals to men before it just was so.  Same thing with civil rights.  Attention has to be brought to it because it shouldn't have to demand attention.  It SHOULD just be, but it isn't and that is what works like that try to do.

I guess I wish we were at that point already. Shame people are still stupid, ignorant and prejudice.

But, as i said, I've nothing wrong with stories that explore sexuality, I just get annoyed when stories/anthologies/posts on furms make a big deal out of sexuality without exploring it or really saying anything new or interesting


blueeyeddevil

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Reply #33 on: March 01, 2011, 01:25:29 PM
I look at this long set of posts full of passionate and long-written posts and think "you know what this needs? My opinion!"

Hmm, well.

I think that, were all of humanity to forget its prejudices and enter the age of aquarius, we still would be just a little woogy about sex. There are reasons for this which are not merely normative and cultural, but physiological and neurochemical.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is how things should be, nor that this idea precludes us from endeavoring to create a better understanding and acceptance of sexuality.
I think what we are really discussing here is an equally large, and probably nearly as old question: what is acceptable for Art to depict?
Or, to be slightly less pretentious, what really works in writing?
I've commented on stories involving sex before, saying a variation on what's already been said here; i.e. I'm not offended, but the actual description is neither titillating to me, nor particularly useful for the furtherance of the plot.
Does sexual (specific, graphic) content really work in stories that are not themselves specifically at their core about sex?
I'd like to simply let the question lie, yet I suppose I should be fair and risk my own neck:
Yes and no. (after thinking a little bit I came up with Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series, Tad Williams' Green Angel Tower series, the last scene of "Leaving Las Vegas," "Tipping the Velvet", and "Romeo and Juliet," as the only stories I could think of where specific sexual acts were important, and to be honest some of these are really only where sexual acts are strongly implied .)
By and large, in my opinion, the presence of graphic sexuality usually ends up being wasted space in the story. I’ve rarely encountered a story where the choice to explicitly demonstrate the intimate parts of a relationship forged a greater verisimilitude than other more commonplace description.

Edit:added a missing line in paranthetical story list
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 02:02:29 PM by blueeyeddevil »



Unblinking

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Reply #34 on: March 01, 2011, 02:45:13 PM
2.  On the flip side of the perceived dislike of stories that involve lesbians, I don't think that people should be discouraged to voice dislike if they disliked it.  You know I'm not bashful about stating my dislike of any given story, but I try to be specific in my response, as I was with this one.  Just so that we don't push over to the opposite side, where anyone who voices dislike of a story with homosexuality is accused of homophobia.


Unblinking, I appreciate your post, but I'm going to disagree with you on #2.

We have a rule on this forum: Be Civil and Respectful. The original post in this topic wasn't civil or respectful, especially to anyone in our forum who is not straight.

If people want to complain about their being too many gay or lesbian characters in EA, I strongly suggest they email the appropriate editor/podcast, because I do not want to see it here. It's rude, and whether or not the Tang! meant it to be, it's also hateful. See norareed's Too Much Heterosexuality post for a different perspective, or substitute pretty much any minority for "lesbian". IMO, posts like this are not welcome. If you want to email me about it, or Mur, or PP, I encourage people to do so.

It's fine to dislike a story and explain why you disliked it. As you (Unblinking) know, we encourage people to let us know what they thought of the story, regardless of whether they liked it or not.

It's not okay to be rude/hateful to a group of people.

I tried to choose my words carefully, but apparently I wasn't careful enough.  I am not saying that we should be rude or hateful to any group of people.  I wasn't supporting the argument that EP has too many stories with lesbians in them.  

What I was responding to was that it seemed that ElectricPaladin might be overgeneralizing in his response to Tang! when he said that stories with lesbians got apparent lower approval ratings in the forums than stories without lesbians.  That certainly might be true, but interpreted one way that might imply that "if a story has a lesbian in it, then we should not give negative comments about it" which, to me, would merely be another permutation of prejudice.  As I said before I just don't want us to swing in the OTHER direction where someone feels uncomfortable criticizing the plot for being slow or the journal entries for being digressive simply BECAUSE there happened to be a lesbian.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 02:48:08 PM by Unblinking »



Unblinking

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Reply #35 on: March 01, 2011, 02:54:45 PM
Yes, I counted the stories when you wrote into us. It was actually less than 1 of 10 - coming in at eight percent. What I didn't explicity state (because I thought it was rather obvious) that while 8% of our stories featured lesbians (note: not necesarilly lesbians having sex), it meant that the rest of our stories - 92% - featured either straight or gay characters. (Unfortunately - at PodCastle, we only ran two stories that feature gay characters in the past year.)

During the same time period, 6% of our stories were by some guy named Tim Pratt, 8% of our stories were chosen by Ann Leckie,  8% of our stories were narrated by Wilson Fowlie, 14% of our stories prominently featured dreams, and 6% of our stories were about goats (though not all the goats were literal goats, some were of people with goat parts).

I eagerly await complaint letters about our goat-centric podcast.

So, it's inevitable for Ann Leckie to choose a story about goats having lesbian sex dreams, written by Tim Pratt, narrated by Wilson Fowlie?  I, for one, look forward to hearing it.



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Reply #36 on: March 01, 2011, 03:02:21 PM
Yes, I counted the stories when you wrote into us. It was actually less than 1 of 10 - coming in at eight percent. What I didn't explicity state (because I thought it was rather obvious) that while 8% of our stories featured lesbians (note: not necesarilly lesbians having sex), it meant that the rest of our stories - 92% - featured either straight or gay characters. (Unfortunately - at PodCastle, we only ran two stories that feature gay characters in the past year.)

During the same time period, 6% of our stories were by some guy named Tim Pratt, 8% of our stories were chosen by Ann Leckie,  8% of our stories were narrated by Wilson Fowlie, 14% of our stories prominently featured dreams, and 6% of our stories were about goats (though not all the goats were literal goats, some were of people with goat parts).

I eagerly await complaint letters about our goat-centric podcast.

So, it's inevitable for Ann Leckie to choose a story about goats having lesbian sex dreams, written by Tim Pratt, narrated by Wilson Fowlie?  I, for one, look forward to hearing it.

That does sound pretty awesome.

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Swamp

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Reply #37 on: March 01, 2011, 04:27:34 PM
What I was responding to was that it seemed that ElectricPaladin might be overgeneralizing in his response to Tang! when he said that stories with lesbians got apparent lower approval ratings in the forums than stories without lesbians.  That certainly might be true, but interpreted one way that might imply that "if a story has a lesbian in it, then we should not give negative comments about it" which, to me, would merely be another permutation of prejudice.  As I said before I just don't want us to swing in the OTHER direction where someone feels uncomfortable criticizing the plot for being slow or the journal entries for being digressive simply BECAUSE there happened to be a lesbian.

I agree with this.  Feeling that you can't say something bad about a story just because it has a lesbian in it and you might offend lesbians if you don't like the story is not where this should be headed.  Now I typically, as a rule, don't comment on stories that I don't like, but I wouldn't want anyone to feel like they couldn't, just because there was a lesbian in it.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 04:30:29 PM by Swamp »

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DKT

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Reply #38 on: March 01, 2011, 05:23:47 PM
I tried to choose my words carefully, but apparently I wasn't careful enough.  I am not saying that we should be rude or hateful to any group of people.  I wasn't supporting the argument that EP has too many stories with lesbians in them.  

What I was responding to was that it seemed that ElectricPaladin might be overgeneralizing in his response to Tang! when he said that stories with lesbians got apparent lower approval ratings in the forums than stories without lesbians.  That certainly might be true, but interpreted one way that might imply that "if a story has a lesbian in it, then we should not give negative comments about it" which, to me, would merely be another permutation of prejudice.  As I said before I just don't want us to swing in the OTHER direction where someone feels uncomfortable criticizing the plot for being slow or the journal entries for being digressive simply BECAUSE there happened to be a lesbian.


Thank you for the clarification, Unblinking. Perhaps I didn't read carefully enough, or choose my own words carefully enough. FWIW, I didn't read it as you encouraging rude or hateful behavior.

I want to make sure I'm being clear as well:

We appreciate feedback on all the stories.

We do not appreciate people commenting in story threads to complain specifically about there being lesbians in a story. In some story threads in the past, I've seen people complain that there wasn't a reason for a character to be lesbian/gay - and honestly, I don't appreciate that either (People don't complain about there being no good reason for a character to be straight in a story), but there hasn't been a full-on rant like Tang!s for a long time.

So story discussion? Yes, please  :D

Complaints about a people group being icky? No. Just don't.

Instead, I'd urge anyone considering ranting to examine why they think this is a valid complaint, and after that - if they really need to - send the appropriate editor an email, as Tang! initially did.


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Reply #39 on: March 01, 2011, 06:36:16 PM
As the EP forum moderator, I'd like to thank the rest of the moderators and the editors who stepped, as this whole discussion began while I was away.

At this point, I think what was worth saying on the topic of lesbians and EP's editorial policy has been said (plus quite a few things not worth saying have been said as well). I am going to lock this topic, not because I want to shut up any individual but mostly because I know from my own experience how difficult it is sometimes to resist the urge to post on a topic even when there's nothing to add to it (which I myself have been fighting with for a lot of this afternoon - this post saw about fifteen revisions). If anyone feels like they have something of value to add here, please PM me and I will consider re-opening the thread.