Author Topic: Have Stories?  (Read 27904 times)

goatkeeper

  • Guest
on: May 02, 2007, 02:19:12 AM
Ok, so I thought I would throw this out there and see if any storywriters would be interested  in having their stories featured on Drabblecast, another weekly short fiction podcast of a sci fi/fantasy nature, largely inspired by Escapepod/Psuedopod.

Maybe your tale didn't make Escapepod or Psuedopod or you didn't win a contest- here's a chance to still get it broadcast to a growing amount of listeners.

Check the podcast out at http://web.mac.com/normsherman
or itunes under Drabblecast.

Stories are usually 1-2K words or less, and are best described as "Atypical, fun, wierd, disturbing, sci-fi/fantasy pieces."

No $ yet (one day!)- just a chance to get your stories our to more ears and some publicity for any websites or books you have.

If interested, send your original work to goatkeeper@hotmail.com

Thanks! Norm



goatkeeper

  • Guest
Reply #1 on: May 25, 2007, 04:03:09 PM
I'm surprised not many folks from Escapepod seem interested in this opportunity.  Can I ask why? (honestly)

With so many writers out there with good ideas, don't writers want to have their pieces exposed to a steady growing audience?




Listener

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • I place things in locations which later elude me.
    • Various and Sundry Items of Interest
Reply #2 on: May 25, 2007, 04:29:54 PM
I'm surprised not many folks from Escapepod seem interested in this opportunity.  Can I ask why? (honestly)

With so many writers out there with good ideas, don't writers want to have their pieces exposed to a steady growing audience?



Maybe the length.  I only have one SF story that would fit but it's not done yet.  My other short stories are all 8,000 - 25,000 words.

"Farts are a hug you can smell." -Wil Wheaton

Blog || Quote Blog ||  Written and Audio Work || Twitter: @listener42


goatkeeper

  • Guest
Reply #3 on: May 25, 2007, 05:27:32 PM
AH yes, hadn't considered that, thanks!  If you ever get in the mood to crank out a flash fiction piece, send away my friend.



Rachel Swirsky

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1233
    • PodCastle
Reply #4 on: May 26, 2007, 05:40:20 AM
I expect to be paid for my work.



Listener

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3187
  • I place things in locations which later elude me.
    • Various and Sundry Items of Interest
Reply #5 on: May 27, 2007, 02:07:01 AM
I expect to be paid for my work.

I used to be.  Now I'd just be happy getting published.

That first publishing credit is worth its weight in gold.  It's all well and good to send cover letters talking up a story, but saying "my last short-story, 'Captain Underpants and the Booger Warriors', was published in the January 2007 issue of 'Disgusting Stuff Quarterly'" adds a lot more weight to what you're sending in.

Of course, those who are putting out the stories know which journals are "critically accepted" and which ones aren't.  Getting into the "good" publications is difficult even if you have a publishing credit.

It's not enough to be a great writer with a great story, unfortunately.  There's still a hell of a lot of luck involved.

At least, I think there is.

"Farts are a hug you can smell." -Wil Wheaton

Blog || Quote Blog ||  Written and Audio Work || Twitter: @listener42


Rachel Swirsky

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1233
    • PodCastle
Reply #6 on: May 27, 2007, 03:01:50 PM
That's not necessarily true. Editors who are aware of short markets may give less consideration to a writer who lists a publication in a market that has a poor reputation.

Now, by "less consideration," I'm not saying they're going to throw your (or indeed an unpublished person's) story out, and say, "Nay! Thou shalt not be considered!"

I mean what one of my well-published friends calls writer points.

Writer points are the amount of good will that you have with an editor or slush reader going into a story. If an editor picks up a properly formatted manuscript, with nice, dark, easy to read writing, that's professional-looking -- bang. That's writer points.

If you've been to a workshop that the editor has respect for, that's writer points. If your cover letter is pithy and grammatical, writer points. If your first sentence has good grammar, and perhaps even something intriguing about it, writer points.

If you can credit a pro market, writer points. If you can credit a non-pro, but good market, writer points. And so on.

And writer points can happen in reverse. Messy, unformatted manuscript. Negative writer points. Long, rambly cover letter with strange proclamations about the voices in your head that have told you to send out hte story. Negative writer points. First sentence with an unclear subject, no strong voice, and a cliche. Negative writer points.

Market that the editor has had a bad experience with, or knows isn't very discerning, negative writer points.

And this is all automatic and mostly subconscious, in the same way that when you as the reader pick up a magazine, you are more likely to be like "oooh, nice production values" and be more likely to persist through slightly boring content, whereas something printed in red ink on pink paper upside down is likely to have annoyed you before you begin reading.

To be frank, I'm not sure how much previous publicaiton credits matter at all. Others have said it, but I'll say it: I think the idea that you have to have a previous publication credit in order to be taken seriously is bupkiss.

If you can put Realms of Fantasy in your cover letter, you get a boost. If you put down a market that has no reputation or a poor reputation, why would you get a boost? The boost of Realms of Fantasy comes from the fact that the editor reading your manuscript knows you can produce excellent work that can get through a tough slush pile to catch the attention of an editor with a good reputation. Publishing with a market that has no prestige, or a negative reputation, is NOT going to count for the same thing. Putting ROF on your cover letter is, in a way, sort of like putting "was once endorsed by Shawna" on your cover letter (only in a polite fashion). That positive association isn't going to happen if the editor doesn't know and trust the person you were endorsed by.

If you have no credits in your cover letter, you can still look clean and professional. You may excite the idea of discovery in the editor -- that they could be the first to publish you.

Putting the name of a market that has no, or a negative, reputation, on your cover letter, on the other hand, MAY signal the editor  "this writer can't sell their work to bigger markets." (Not all editors are the same, so it won't signal all editors this way.) It may signal "this is a persistent, dedicated writer, who perhaps isn't quite ready for the big leagues." It may signal nothing at all.

I don't mean that you shouldn't submit to low or no prestige markets if you want to. Assess your goals. If you want to reach readers with a story you don't think you can sell elsewhere, do it.

But I think it is fallacious to believe that it will help your career.

--

In this note, I am speaking of markets generally. I am not talking about this particular market, of which I have no experience outside this message board.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2007, 03:03:45 PM by palimpsest »



scottjanssens

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Reply #7 on: May 27, 2007, 05:41:13 PM
Palimpsest is right.  If an author lists any pro or prestigious semi-pro credits in his/her cover letter, I'm likely to read the submission with a bit more tolerance.  Mentioning an unpaying market or one I've never heard of (and I'm well versered in small markets) doesn't hurt an author, but it doesn't gain an author anything either.  I'm speaking of an unpublished story here.  Always mention the market if the story was published.

Maybe one of these days I'll post what not to put in one's cover letter.



Russell Nash

  • Guest
Reply #8 on: May 29, 2007, 09:22:12 AM
Maybe one of these days I'll post what not to put in one's cover letter.

You could probably save yourself a lot of grief if you put up a form or example cover letter for people submitting to EP.



JaredAxelrod

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • 4-Color Hero
    • The Voice Of Free Planetx
Reply #9 on: May 29, 2007, 06:02:16 PM
But I think it is fallacious to believe that it will help your career.

Mentioning an unpaying market or one I've never heard of (and I'm well versered in small markets) doesn't hurt an author, but it doesn't gain an author anything either.

...Which would be true if we sold stories to be published in a vaccum.  However, every story published means that it reaches an audience, and when even top publications have trouble selling more than 30,000--including ASIMOV'S and REALMS OF FANTASY--you can easily publishing on a website and get similiar audience numbers.

So, no, being published on a unpaying market doesn't do a thing for selling that next story.  However, it's very good for building up a fanbase that will buy you work months and years down the line.   



Rachel Swirsky

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1233
    • PodCastle
Reply #10 on: May 29, 2007, 06:08:32 PM
Quote
you can easily publishing on a website and get similiar audience numbers

Which non-paying genre markets with low or no prestige get 30,000 unique downloads?



JaredAxelrod

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • 4-Color Hero
    • The Voice Of Free Planetx
Reply #11 on: May 29, 2007, 06:33:10 PM
Quote
you can easily publishing on a website and get similiar audience numbers

Which non-paying genre markets with low or no prestige get 30,000 unique downloads?

365 tomorrows reaches an average unique audience of 900,000, according to the Alexa data.

Topping 30,000 is nothing.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 06:36:56 PM by JaredAxelrod »



Rachel Swirsky

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1233
    • PodCastle
Reply #12 on: May 29, 2007, 06:42:18 PM
Per story?

I've had access to some circulation numbers for webzines because of something I'm doing for SFWA, and I'm skeptical that people are really getting as much exposure as you think they are.

I also think that exposure is not as worthwhile as you seem to think it is. You can't build a fan base simply by having a story out there. It has to be a story that is good and memorable enough to hook into the reader's brain so that they remember it, and you, enough to follow you from sale to sale. You also have to attract people who are willing to follow you out of markets that cost nothing to places where they may have to pay for your work.

You can't just publish. You have to publish GOOD stuff.

And, frankly, most publications with no prestige aren't screening the good stuff from the crap. A good editorial hand is part of what you get along with your pay, which is why I'm willing to take a pay hit and sell work for $5 or $10, if I can work with a great editor -- say John Klima at Electric Velocipede, or Eric Marin at Lone Star Stories. Note that while both markets have low pay, they are also both well-regarded.

And also that they afford authors the respect of a payment, even if that payment is low.



JaredAxelrod

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • 4-Color Hero
    • The Voice Of Free Planetx
Reply #13 on: May 29, 2007, 06:59:24 PM
Per story?

Sure.  They have a new story up every day.  So that's a much more acurate guess of how many readers per story than assuming all 31,000 Asimov's readers have read the thing cover to cover.

I've had access to some circulation numbers for webzines because of something I'm doing for SFWA, and I'm skeptical that people are really getting as much exposure as you think they are.

I also think that exposure is not as worthwhile as you seem to think it is. You can't build a fan base simply by having a story out there. It has to be a story that is good and memorable enough to hook into the reader's brain so that they remember it, and you, enough to follow you from sale to sale. You also have to attract people who are willing to follow you out of markets that cost nothing to places where they may have to pay for your work.

You can't just publish. You have to publish GOOD stuff.

And, frankly, most publications with no prestige aren't screening the good stuff from the crap. A good editorial hand is part of what you get along with your pay, which is why I'm willing to take a pay hit and sell work for $5 or $10, if I can work with a great editor -- say John Klima at Electric Velocipede, or Eric Marin at Lone Star Stories. Note that while both markets have low pay, they are also both well-regarded.

And also that they afford authors the respect of a payment, even if that payment is low.

If you're looking for an editor to pat you on the head, then yes, your advice to only submit to places that will provide prestige within their limited pages.  If you are looking for an audience, say, like the 20,000+ readers and listeners of Matt Selznick's self-published novel Brave Men Run, or the impressive audience for Mur Lafterty's Heaven.  These authors, too, have accepted paycuts.  But they get an extensive audience in exchange rather than the paternal guidence you're looking for.

If your work is crap, it's not going to get remembered by any audience whether it gets published or not.  So I fail to see how reaching out for the biggest audience possible is harmful.



raygunray

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
  • Sundae, bloody Sundae
    • Diabetic In Candyland
Reply #14 on: May 29, 2007, 07:01:28 PM
At a con in Orlando, Jack McDevitt said beginning writers should only target top shelf markets like Asimov's or at least moderate to high circulation markets.  It may take longer, but once your byline appears next to well established writers, your reputation will be built on a solid foundation.  A credit in a major market grabs the attention of editors and publishers, and earns many "writers points" in one drop.

Also, I have heard that targeting certain magazines is a far superior tactic than the scattershot approach of publishing anywhere the editors will have you.  You may earn a pile or rejection slips, but the editor will begin to recognize your name and see the progress of your writing.  If you get a "close-but-no-cigar" rejection letter, as opposed to the boilerplate rejection letter, then that is a sign that your story won't go straight to the slushpile. You have grabbed the editor's attention as a potential sale; a real sale is not far behind if you follow his/her advice.

From personal experience, I have gained nothing by publishing for nada.  Also, I have helped and buried several zines that never go anywhere due to disorganization and lack of dedication.  Around thirty, I told myself that if I ever got back into writing, I will only publish with paying markets.  As a web designer, some people want me to do charity work on a zine which I politely decline. I get paid to do the wild thing.

Diabetic in Candyland -
Stories about Winning at Losing and Failing Successfully.


Rachel Swirsky

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1233
    • PodCastle
Reply #15 on: May 29, 2007, 07:05:08 PM
Ray,

I agree with much of what you're saying. I've got a couple quibbles...

Quote
Also, I have heard that targeting certain magazines is a far superior tactic

I can't think of a pro editor I've talked to who agrees with that. Gordon Van Gelder, for instance, urged our Clarion West class not to edit ourselves, but to let him do it for us. The top-down method is fairly well-respected.

I have a few writer friends who do quite well with targetting, because they have worked with editors long enough that they know who's most likely to pick stuff up. It seems to work best for people who A) have been selling pro for several years at least, and B) are writing stories that fit well within pre-defined boundaries. Admittedly, it's hard to tell whether they sell their stories within one or two tries because they're targetting correctly, or because they write so well that they'd be likely to be accepted by any markets they targetted.

Quote
If you get a "close-but-no-cigar" rejection letter, as opposed to the boilerplate rejection letter, then that is a sign that your story won't go straight to the slushpile.


Close-but-no-cigars are definitely great, but I don't think they mean that you get sifted out of the slush in future. It seems to vary by market.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 07:07:24 PM by palimpsest »



JaredAxelrod

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • 4-Color Hero
    • The Voice Of Free Planetx
Reply #16 on: May 29, 2007, 07:53:51 PM
From personal experience, I have gained nothing by publishing for nada

That's weird. I've gotten invitations to speak at conventions, requests for more work for anthologies, a devoted audience that promotes me for free and contacts with some of the smartest people in modern publishing.

Guess it's not that way for everyone...



raygunray

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
  • Sundae, bloody Sundae
    • Diabetic In Candyland
Reply #17 on: May 29, 2007, 08:13:46 PM
Quote
Guess it's not that way for everyone...

Those experiences were from my early, literary days. There were so many sincere people who wanted to start the next Anitoch Review who never got one issue of the press. 

I have only attempted to publish SF in the last two years and I have found that the SF community is less flaky and more supportive. I think my mistake was that I couldn't tell a dilletante from a serious professional and ended up in abortive enterprises.

Sure, I'm a little jaded, but I've noticed the SF community is serious minded and professional. The seem to appreciate those who work with no expectation of compensation much more than the literary and essay fruits do.

Diabetic in Candyland -
Stories about Winning at Losing and Failing Successfully.


JaredAxelrod

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • 4-Color Hero
    • The Voice Of Free Planetx
Reply #18 on: May 29, 2007, 08:32:45 PM
Sure, I'm a little jaded, but I've noticed the SF community is serious minded and professional. The seem to appreciate those who work with no expectation of compensation much more than the literary and essay fruits do.

"Essay fruits."  I like that.



scottjanssens

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Reply #19 on: May 30, 2007, 01:43:14 AM
You could probably save yourself a lot of grief if you put up a form or example cover letter for people submitting to EP.

Dear Editor,

Here is my 2,500-word story "Androids I Have Loved".  It has previously appeared in [market].  Thank you for your considertion.


Yours,

Jane Q. Writer



J.R. Blackwell

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 40
  • . . . jumps on hotel beds.
    • 365 Tomorrows
Reply #20 on: May 30, 2007, 03:35:00 AM
I've been paid for my fiction. I've given my fiction away for free. I've been rewarded for both.

Allow me to share a story with you. I've just graduated from Penn with my Masters degree. While at Penn, I took a class in the philosophy of biology. A large portion of this class was studying evolution and the perception of evolution in popular culture. When the Flying Spaghetti Monster was mentioned in class, I looked it up on the web.

I was very amused by what I found. In the process of procrastinating on writing my final report for the class I wrote a short, humorous essay about the Flying Spaghetti Monster. An online science magazine was offering 100$ dollars worth of Raman to the person who wrote the funniest essay about the flying spaghetti monster. I submitted my essay, knowing that the best I could do was 100$ worth of noodles. Noodles. Not cash.

I had almost forgotten about the contest when I got an e-mail from an editor at Random House. The editor wanted my permission to put my essay in the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. A few months later my words were selling in bookstores. I remember looking at the Amazon bestseller list and seeing that The Gospel was just below a Steven King thriller.

I could have decided that I wouldn't submit because I wasn't going to get paid. If I had never submitted to that non-paying market, I would not have been published in stores in The Gospel. My essay would have just been a private laugh for my friends and family.

Make no mistake; I want to make a living out of my writing someday. I'm not going to give everything away for free. However, a little generosity at this stage in my career has been beneficial. The first time I submitted to a paying market the editor already knew my name because of the fiction I'd been giving away on the web. 

I have more stories in me than I could write in a lifetime. I am wealthy with stories. 
I can afford to give them away.

My Podcast: http://voicesoftomorrow.libsyn.com
My Blog:http://blackwell.livejournal.com/
My Photos:http://www.flickr.com/photos/jrblackwell/


SFEley

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1408
    • Escape Artists, Inc.
Reply #21 on: May 30, 2007, 04:54:37 AM
365 tomorrows reaches an average unique audience of 900,000, according to the Alexa data.

Topping 30,000 is nothing.

Um.  I hate to correct this, because I actually pretty much agree with your points in spirit (as you know), but I think you've got your numbers a bit backwards.  An Alexa rank of 915,000 does not signify an audience size of nearly a million.  In fact it implies quite the opposite.

The Alexa rank is a relative ranking against other tracked sites.  What this number means is that, of all the people using the Alexa toolbar in their Web browsers, there are 915,000 sites more popular than 365Tomorrows.com.

In contrast, Wikipedia has an Alexa rank of 9.  Yahoo! has rank 1.  Escape Pod's rank is currently 508,000, and Strange Horizons is 261,000.

I personally don't set a lot of store by these numbers.  I don't know who uses the Alexa toolbar, or why, so I don't know who they're tracking.  But you can't use Alexa to communicate the audience size of a site.  You have to look at that site's server stats. 

And yes, 30,000 unique visitors in a month would be a very solid number.  Escape Pod's site receives requests from roughly 50,000 distinct hosts in a month.  900,000 would be stratospheric.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 05:14:04 AM by SFEley »

ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine


Rachel Swirsky

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1233
    • PodCastle
Reply #22 on: May 30, 2007, 06:25:34 AM
Payment in noodles is different than payment in exposure. The one is barter. The other is a gift economy.

Give away your stories if that's what you're interested in. I don't prefer to appear in markets that don't think my work is worth money, although, as I indicated previously, I am willing to accept less payment to work with an editor or project I consider especially worthwhile.



Russell Nash

  • Guest
Reply #23 on: May 30, 2007, 07:32:34 AM
I'm treading on thin ice as a non-writer, but I noticed a point that wasn't coming up.(or wasn't being plainly expressed)

Not all paying markets are equal, and not all non-paying markets are equal.  The Gospel was for a website that was getting massive traffic and recognition.  This thread was started by someone starting a podcast from scratch.  Escape Pod pays something like $50, but so does Readers Digest if you're the first person to send in a funny quote from Leno. 

I think you need to assess more than just what it pays. You need to assess quality and popularity of the market.



JaredAxelrod

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • 4-Color Hero
    • The Voice Of Free Planetx
Reply #24 on: May 30, 2007, 01:31:20 PM
Um.  I hate to correct this, because I actually pretty much agree with your points in spirit (as you know), but I think you've got your numbers a bit backwards.  An Alexa rank of 915,000 does not signify an audience size of nearly a million.  In fact it implies quite the opposite.

Correct all you want.  I'm cool. 

What's a good website for comparing the veiwership of other sites?