Russell Nash vs. Everyone!!!

[Russell Nash]

Wow and I thought your skin was pretty darn green to begin with..

Thanks,  I have my own make-up girl come in before these big matches.

Oh man how can I compete with that! Ah, well at least I have a stunt double! He's looking pretty bad off right at the moment, probably going to quit if you keep beating on him! *sigh*

Is that the guy I just kicked in the nuts?

[gedion_ki]

Wow and I thought your skin was pretty darn green to begin with..

Thanks,  I have my own make-up girl come in before these big matches.

Oh man how can I compete with that! Ah, well at least I have a stunt double! He's looking pretty bad off right at the moment, probably going to quit if you keep beating on him! *sigh*

Is that the guy I just kicked in the nuts?

Darn there goes another one.. Oh well there goes another stuntman clone. My clone replicator is faulty so they keep getting more dysfunctional, but I figure I'll ware ya out even if they are easy to beat...

[Russell Nash]

Wow and I thought your skin was pretty darn green to begin with..

Thanks,  I have my own make-up girl come in before these big matches.

Oh man how can I compete with that! Ah, well at least I have a stunt double! He's looking pretty bad off right at the moment, probably going to quit if you keep beating on him! *sigh*

Is that the guy I just kicked in the nuts?

Darn there goes another one.. Oh well there goes another stuntman clone. My clone replicator is faulty so they keep getting more dysfunctional, but I figure I'll ware ya out even if they are easy to beat...

Are they clones or replicants.  I can't do replicants.  I got kicked out of the Blade Runner Union.  Fucking Deckard!

[wherethewild]

Wherethewild saunters in. Her coat is open, her left hand in the pocket. She surveys the room, evaluating. The previously jeering crowds fall silent and open a path for her as she moves towards the bar. She orders a whisky, pausing to light a cigar before turning to the battered man on her right. She inhales deeply and then lets a thin stream of smoke directly into his face.
“Fella,” she says, “you ain´t got no business being in here. It´s time you left this thread for one where you can handle it.” She pauses and makes a small motion with her cigar. “Tommy, get Mr Nash his hat, he´ll be leaving us about now.”

[Russell Nash]

Wherethewild saunters in. Her coat is open, her left hand in the pocket. She surveys the room, evaluating. The previously jeering crowds fall silent and open a path for her as she moves towards the bar. She orders a whisky, pausing to light a cigar before turning to the battered man on her right. She inhales deeply and then lets a thin stream of smoke directly into his face.
“Fella,” she says, “you ain´t got no business being in here. It´s time you left this thread for one where you can handle it.” She pauses and makes a small motion with her cigar. “Tommy, get Mr Nash his hat, he´ll be leaving us about now.”

**choke gag**
What is that **cough** a 25 cent cigar?
**Falls to knees**
I give up.
**hack cough**
You win.
**gets up and staggers towards the door**
I'll go
**Pukes on DKT**
bdoomed, clean that **cough** up, will you?
**leaves the**gag**thread**

[wintermute]

Your penmanship is atrocious, and you dress in the manner of a male prostitute.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

I'm just glad he's dressed.   

[Thaurismunths]

**choke gag**
What is that **cough** a 25 cent cigar?
**Falls to knees**
I give up.
**hack cough**
You win.
**gets up and staggers towards the door**
I'll go
**Pukes on DKT**
bdoomed, clean that **cough** up, will you?
**leaves the**gag**thread**

Wearing a bag over your head is a good start, but with a gag reflex like that I don't see your adult film career going anywhere.

[deflective]

I still contend there isn't a single SF story that can't be turned into a non-SF story.

If you want to challenge me, start a new thread so we don't goop up this thread.

all you zombies by Heinlein

you might be able to cram it into a fantasy setting with spells & magic items but it would be really, really forced.

[Bdoomed]

**choke gag**
What is that **cough** a 25 cent cigar?
**Falls to knees**
I give up.
**hack cough**
You win.
**gets up and staggers towards the door**
I'll go
**Pukes on DKT**
bdoomed, clean that **cough** up, will you?
**leaves the**gag**thread**

I aint no f*cking maid!

[errant371]

I still contend there isn't a single SF story that can't be turned into a non-SF story.

If you want to challenge me, start a new thread so we don't goop up this thread.

all you zombies by Heinlein

you might be able to cram it into a fantasy setting with spells & magic items but it would be really, really forced.

And I would like him to try it with "The Cold Equations" by Tom Godwin.  While the basic premise of self sacrifice can be used in any genre, the specifics of the plot would be difficult to change to another type.

[stePH]

And I would like him to try it with "The Cold Equations" by Tom Godwin.  While the basic premise of self sacrifice can be used in any genre, the specifics of the plot would be difficult to change to another type.

I believe Nash has already admitted in the other thread where this was brought up, that "The Cold Equations" is firmly sci-fi and cannot be done in any other genre.

[errant371]

And I would like him to try it with "The Cold Equations" by Tom Godwin.  While the basic premise of self sacrifice can be used in any genre, the specifics of the plot would be difficult to change to another type.

I believe Nash has already admitted in the other thread where this was brought up, that "The Cold Equations" is firmly sci-fi and cannot be done in any other genre.

I must have missed that comment.  My bad.  Unless someone else brought it up before I did (in another thread, the one on "The Right Kind of Town"), looks like I score a point for Us!   

[deflective]

looks like Russell is staying out of this thread now (which i coulda guessed if i looked before posting).

i'm surprised that the cold equations would be considered unchangeably sf. seems like the it would pretty straightforward to change the setting to a wwii plane on an essential mission with only one parachute.

the primary story would remain almost exactly the same.

[stePH]

And I would like him to try it with "The Cold Equations" by Tom Godwin.  While the basic premise of self sacrifice can be used in any genre, the specifics of the plot would be difficult to change to another type.

I believe Nash has already admitted in the other thread where this was brought up, that "The Cold Equations" is firmly sci-fi and cannot be done in any other genre.

I must have missed that comment.  My bad.  Unless someone else brought it up before I did (in another thread, the one on "The Right Kind of Town"), looks like I score a point for Us!   

I was wrong (nothing new, of course  ).  Here's what Russell said:

Back in the ep113 thread we had one guy (the only guy to ever get banned from these forums for something other than spamming) who was saying similiar things.  I said any SF story could be turned into a non-SF story.  I then turned Star Wars into the Alamo. 

When I challenged him to come up with a story that couldn't be changed, he came up with Soylent Green.  I turned it into a story about cannibalism on the Oregon Trail.  I still contend there isn't a single SF story that can't be turned into a non-SF story. _{(emphasis mine -- stePH)}

[errant371]

looks like Russell is staying out of this thread now (which i coulda guessed if i looked before posting).

i'm surprised that the cold equations would be considered unchangeably sf. seems like the it would pretty straightforward to change the setting to a wwii plane on an essential mission with only one parachute.

the primary story would remain almost exactly the same.

I would disagree.  You can (almost) always land a plane when it is out of fuel, especially a WWII era propeller driven aircraft.  "The Cold Equations" relies on just that, the unalterable physical, scientific laws determining the speed, tajectory and distance travelled for a space craft of that type.  Aircraft, while subject to the same laws have more options open to them than space craft.  The bomber also contains equipment non-essential to the mission that can be jettisoned to save fuel.  In "The Cold Equations" there is only the ship, the fuel, the cargo, the pilot and of course the stowaway.  Only one of those things is non-essential; nothing can be jettisoned but the stowaway.

If Godwin had added extra features to the space ship, or had non-plausable technologies to his story, then I could agree with you.  Because Godwin's story is paired down to the barest of details, and those details are based on hard science, there is not much left to jettison or change to another genre.

[deflective]

I would disagree.  You can (almost) always land a plane when it is out of fuel, especially a WWII era propeller driven aircraft.  "The Cold Equations" relies on just that, the unalterable physical, scientific laws determining the speed, tajectory and distance travelled for a space craft of that type.

it relies on a situation where she must die for the mission to succeed.

it's just a matter of coming up with the right circumstances. how about an arctic radar station on a small rock that needs to be repaired? heavy seas, the plane needs to get there in time and the pilot needs to parachute in order to get on the island. no time to change course, etc. keep in mind, it isn't that the starship couldn't get her to the next port, it's that it couldn't do it and succeed at its mission.

even then, the case they make is a little shaky. they're on a ship with closet doors, clipboards, and presumably weapons. they can't scrounge up a hundred pounds to jettison? it isn't so much that the scenario created is airtight, we need to accept the dilemma is as presented to us.

in this way every single thing that happens in the story can still happen in the new setting. the only real difference is that the pilot jumps to safety (presumably with some essential piece of equipment that only he knows how to use) while she has to stay on the plane, carried to certain death.

[errant371]

I would disagree.  You can (almost) always land a plane when it is out of fuel, especially a WWII era propeller driven aircraft.  "The Cold Equations" relies on just that, the unalterable physical, scientific laws determining the speed, tajectory and distance travelled for a space craft of that type.

it relies on a situation where she must die for the mission to succeed.

it's just a matter of coming up with the right circumstances. how about an arctic radar station on a small rock that needs to be repaired? heavy seas, the plane needs to get there in time and the pilot needs to parachute in order to get on the island. no time to change course, etc. keep in mind, it isn't that the starship couldn't get her to the next port, it's that it couldn't do it and succeed at its mission.

even then, the case they make is a little shaky. they're on a ship with closet doors, clipboards, and presumably weapons. they can't scrounge up a hundred pounds to jettison? it isn't so much that the scenario created is airtight, we need to accept the dilemma is as presented to us.

in this way every single thing that happens in the story can still happen in the new setting. the only real difference is that the pilot jumps to safety (presumably with some essential piece of equipment that only he knows how to use) while she has to stay on the plane, carried to certain death.

While you make some good points, the story isn't that someone has to die for the mission to succeed.  That plot could be done with any genre.  What makes "The Cold Equations" special is the reason why someone has to die.  The stowaway has to die because she exceeds the maximum mass for the ship to succeed in the mission.  I suppose you could substitute another craft for the spaceship, but the story's reliance on the scientific priciples as the cause for the problem places it squarely in science fiction, rather than fantasy.  If you could replace the science with something else, well, then it wouldn't be science fiction.

According to the hard S/F anthology it is reprinted in, Campbell kept rejecting the story until Godwin managed to rewrite it in such a way that Campbell couldn't find some way of saving the girl.  It has been a year or so since I last re-read the story so I am shakey on the particulars of the ship itself, but I would imagine that Campbell would have found clipboards and closet doors to eject.

Also, it is not so much the setting that is the issue.  You can have science fiction that occurs in contemporary times as well as the future.  You premise about an arctic radar station on a small rock would be just as appropriate for science fiction as for a spy story.  If the reason the extra person has to die is because of unalterable laws of physics, and that these laws are the crux of the plot, then it is (in my book anyway) still science fiction.  If you can come up with exactly the same plot where the unalterable laws of magic say the person has to die, then that would be a fantasy story, and that would prove me wrong.  I don't think you can without completely changing what the story is.

[deflective]

I suppose you could substitute another craft for the spaceship, but the story's reliance on the scientific priciples as the cause for the problem places it squarely in science fiction, rather than fantasy.  If you could replace the science with something else, well, then it wouldn't be science fiction.

that's the challenge before us isn't it? remove the science fiction without changing the story (my hat's off to anyone that can do this with all you zombies).

your edits have clarified your position a bit. if you remove the speculative part of science fiction you're just left with science, not every story that relies on science is science fiction.

It has been a year or so since I last re-read the story so I am shakey on the particulars of the ship itself, but I would imagine that Campbell would have found clipboards and closet doors to eject.

i linked the story, up to you if you want to take fifteen minutes to refresh yourself.

You premise about an arctic radar station on a small rock would be just as appropriate for science fiction as for a spy story.  If the reason the extra person has to die is because of unalterable laws of physics, and that these laws are the crux of the plot, then it is (in my book anyway) still science fiction.

it's easier to change your mind than the definition of sf. =)

if some of the story's exposition spent time on the realities of arctic water hypothermia, the minutes you have to live after immersion, the title could even be 'the cold truths.' virtually identical. these things are simple facts that you could find in any exploration story, no speculation in it.

[Thaurismunths]

I still contend there isn't a single SF story that can't be turned into a non-SF story.

If you want to challenge me, start a new thread so we don't goop up this thread.

all you zombies by Heinlein

you might be able to cram it into a fantasy setting with spells & magic items but it would be really, really forced.

And I would like him to try it with "The Cold Equations" by Tom Godwin.  While the basic premise of self sacrifice can be used in any genre, the specifics of the plot would be difficult to change to another type.

I'd really like to thank you for mentioning that story. I've just finished reading it and it was truly gripping.

[sirana]

Have any of you read Greg Egans's Stuff? I'd say it is full of stories that only make sense as SciFi (the one that comes to mind first is "The Infinite Assassin" which is the first story in the collection "Axiomatic").
Of the ones that are availlable online, I think this one  would also be impossible to convert into anything else.

[errant371]

I suppose you could substitute another craft for the spaceship, but the story's reliance on the scientific priciples as the cause for the problem places it squarely in science fiction, rather than fantasy.  If you could replace the science with something else, well, then it wouldn't be science fiction.

that's the challenge before us isn't it? remove the science fiction without changing the story (my hat's off to anyone that can do this with all you zombies).

your edits have clarified your position a bit. if you remove the speculative part of science fiction you're just left with science, not every story that relies on science is science fiction.

It has been a year or so since I last re-read the story so I am shakey on the particulars of the ship itself, but I would imagine that Campbell would have found clipboards and closet doors to eject.

i linked the story, up to you if you want to take fifteen minutes to refresh yourself.

You premise about an arctic radar station on a small rock would be just as appropriate for science fiction as for a spy story.  If the reason the extra person has to die is because of unalterable laws of physics, and that these laws are the crux of the plot, then it is (in my book anyway) still science fiction.

it's easier to change your mind than the definition of sf. =)

if some of the story's exposition spent time on the realities of arctic water hypothermia, the minutes you have to live after immersion, the title could even be 'the cold truths.' virtually identical. these things are simple facts that you could find in any exploration story, no speculation in it.

The link was dead, but I will dig through my library to see if I can find it.

My position is not as clear as I would like it to be.  The speculative aspect of the story is that it is set on a space ship (although one could argue that all fiction is speculative, but here I will take the term to mean genre).  Speculative fiction, of course, could be fantasy, supernatural horror etc, but when science is used to create verisimilitude or create the conflict in the story, that would be science fiction.  If you transpose the setting to the arctic (I like your hypothetical title!) use science to create the central problem of the plot but have no speculation (ei: fantasy, spaceships etc) it would be a thriller. 

I see now that "The Cold Equations" may not have been the best choice for this kind of argument, but it is instructive in how science can be used in fiction.

In my defense, however, this definition is not entirely my own.  It came from Bluejack over at The Internet Review of Science Fiction, and it is not one that is entirely firm or definitive (!).  It is good, however, as a rule of thumb.

[deflective]

I'd really like to thank you for mentioning that story. I've just finished reading it and it was truly gripping.

aye, any story that stays fresh after fifty years is strong. doubly strong when it's science fiction. the only thing that really dated it for me was the implied sexism (whoop that word =P ): what? a girl? no way she could know or understand the issues at play!

The link was dead, but I will dig through my library to see if I can find it.

maybe that page wasn't supposed to be open to the public, the traffic may have caused them to take it down. google cache has it for now. dunno how long.

The speculative aspect of the story is that it is set on a space ship (although one could argue that all fiction is speculative, but here I will take the term to mean genre).  Speculative fiction, of course, could be fantasy, supernatural horror etc, but when science is used to create verisimilitude or create the conflict in the story, that would be science fiction.  If you transpose the setting to the arctic (I like your hypothetical title!) use science to create the central problem of the plot but have no speculation (ei: fantasy, spaceships etc) it would be a thriller.
...
In my defense, however, this definition is not entirely my own.  It came from Bluejack over at The Internet Review of Science Fiction, and it is not one that is entirely firm or definitive (!).  It is good, however, as a rule of thumb.

that's cool =)  i do think that i misunderstood you.

relying on wikipedia for definitions isn't foolproof but i put confidence in anything thats stood for some time without change (the definition that is, the details of a page are usually in flux).

[Thaurismunths]

I'd really like to thank you for mentioning that story. I've just finished reading it and it was truly gripping.

aye, any story that stays fresh after fifty years is strong. doubly strong when it's science fiction. the only thing that really dated it for me was the implied sexism (whoop that word =P ): what? a girl? no way she could know or understand the issues at play!

Sexist? I suppose so. There are us chauvinistic asses that find females more sympathetic (damn heterosexuality!). But if I think about the genders of the stowaway being switched I don't believe it would change the story much.
It was stated, repeatedly and at length that she didn't know what she was getting herself in to because she was A) young, and B) from earth. Her gender only affected the outcome in that crucial first 1/10 of a second when she stepped from the closet, but I suspect a sufficiently pitiable young man might have elicited the same response from the pilot.

(Any further discussion along this line should probably happen privately, or on another thread. We're supposed to be making fun of Nash's big ears here.)

[deflective]

Have any of you read Greg Egans's Stuff?
Of the ones that are availlable online, I think this one  would be impossible to convert into anything else.

nice, a second stowaway story. it's like we got a theme going.

from my point of view this story translates into high fantasy very easily. the technology in the story is so advanced it's pretty much indistinguishable from magic anyway. on the other hand, a fantasy version wouldn't be nearly as interesting since a large part of the narrative is looking at the structure of a black hole and if that was replaced with a fictional structure it would just read like self-indulgent world building.

(Any further discussion along this line should probably happen privately, or on another thread. We're supposed to be making fun of Nash's big ears here.)

aye, we were pointed here erroneously but we might as well make the best of it. Russell can always split it if things go on too long.