Foreign Languages

[Boggled Coriander]

Whenever I would stammer out a few poorly composed syllables native speakers would always comment on how fantastic my Japanese was (which was obviously just being polite).  I had to learn the phrase "thank you, but my Japanese is absolutely horrible", which only made them rave about my linguistic skills more and try to engage me in conversation, which I couldn't understand at all.

I lived in Seoul for two and a half years.  I think I've learned to speak badly broken Korean rather well. 

My theory (formulated in Korea, but I suspect it works in Japan too) is that the amount of praise you get from locals is inversely proportionate to your actual linguistic skills.  When I had to repeat myself three times to get a storekeeper to understand me, they always complimented me on my marvelous Korean skills once they realized what I was saying. 

But whenever I observed Westerners speaking fluent Korean to locals, they got treated very matter-of-factly, without all the "ooooh, you speak Korean very well!" praise.

[wintermute]

I lived in Seoul for two and a half years.  I think I've learned to speak badly broken Korean rather well. 

My theory (formulated in Korea, but I suspect it works in Japan too) is that the amount of praise you get from locals is inversely proportionate to your actual linguistic skills.  When I had to repeat myself three times to get a storekeeper to understand me, they always complimented me on my marvelous Korean skills once they realized what I was saying. 

But whenever I observed Westerners speaking fluent Korean to locals, they got treated very matter-of-factly, without all the "ooooh, you speak Korean very well!" praise.

I suspect that they're really saying "well done for trying!" and giving you encouragement to keep at it; and once you're actually fluent, that positive reinforcement is no longer needed.

Of course, this is just something I made up on the spur of the moment, so it's probably wrong

[stePH]

I lived in Seoul for two and a half years.  I think I've learned to speak badly broken Korean rather well. 

My theory (formulated in Korea, but I suspect it works in Japan too) is that the amount of praise you get from locals is inversely proportionate to your actual linguistic skills.  When I had to repeat myself three times to get a storekeeper to understand me, they always complimented me on my marvelous Korean skills once they realized what I was saying. 

But whenever I observed Westerners speaking fluent Korean to locals, they got treated very matter-of-factly, without all the "ooooh, you speak Korean very well!" praise.

I suspect that they're really saying "well done for trying!" and giving you encouragement to keep at it; and once you're actually fluent, that positive reinforcement is no longer needed.

Or maybe they're being sarcastic.  They have sarcasm in Korea, right?  (I recall Douglas Adams writing that they don't have it on Betelgeuse V.)

[Boggled Coriander]

Or maybe they're being sarcastic.  They have sarcasm in Korea, right?  (I recall Douglas Adams writing that they don't have it on Betelgeuse V.)

As Chodon speculated, I think it's just reflexive politeness.  Korea's just as concerned with maintaining politeness as Japan.  (Though it's often mostly about appearances.)

[Tango Alpha Delta]

I lived in Seoul for two and a half years.  I think I've learned to speak badly broken Korean rather well. 

My theory (formulated in Korea, but I suspect it works in Japan too) is that the amount of praise you get from locals is inversely proportionate to your actual linguistic skills.  When I had to repeat myself three times to get a storekeeper to understand me, they always complimented me on my marvelous Korean skills once they realized what I was saying. 

But whenever I observed Westerners speaking fluent Korean to locals, they got treated very matter-of-factly, without all the "ooooh, you speak Korean very well!" praise.

I suspect that they're really saying "well done for trying!" and giving you encouragement to keep at it; and once you're actually fluent, that positive reinforcement is no longer needed.

Of course, this is just something I made up on the spur of the moment, so it's probably wrong

That sounds right to me.  I was placed in a Korean class at DLI, and we got the opposite treatment.  We were "taught" the way actual students in Korea were taught... which generally meant no encouragement whatsoever.  When we went on field trips to San Fransisco for "immersion practice", the shop keepers and restaurateurs would fall all over themselves with praise, but our actual teachers seemed to feel that it was our job to know the language, and they were supremely disappointed that we didn't, yet.

And that link out to the "Learning Japanese" essay is dead on... especially about "context".  We would ask what a particular word meant, and instead of telling us, they would scrawl Chinese on the board.  "It comes from [insert unintelligible syllables], of course.  And EVERYbody know what that mean!"

And THAT, my friends, is why I ended up learning Russian instead.

[birdless]

I do know that when the guy at Wendy's can't get my order right until I say "el pollo" and point to the children, though, that I'm into that surreal territory where I feel warm and fuzzy that I can communicate with him, even though most U.S.icans would be more likely to get upset and start sending money to Tom Tancredo (link provided for information, not endorsement).

I don't know who Tom is, but I have to admit that I do get frustrated when they put someone who can barely communicate in English trying to take my drive-thru order.

[stePH]

I do know that when the guy at Wendy's can't get my order right until I say "el pollo" and point to the children, though, that I'm into that surreal territory where I feel warm and fuzzy that I can communicate with him, even though most U.S.icans would be more likely to get upset and start sending money to Tom Tancredo (link provided for information, not endorsement).

I don't know who Tom is, but I have to admit that I do get frustrated when they put someone who can barely communicate in English trying to take my drive-thru order.

The immigration issue in American politics is a joke.  It's yet another issue where the policitians make every effort to look like they're doing something about it, while actually doing nothing because many employers (e.g., farmers and ranchers) like being able to hire illegals for pennies a day with no benefits.  That's all I have to say about Tom Tancredo and other congresscritters like him.

And I certainly agree with birdless about trying to transact business with people who can barely speak English.  It pisses me off and is likely to drive my business elsewhere.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

...
I don't know who Tom is, but I have to admit that I do get frustrated when they put someone who can barely communicate in English trying to take my drive-thru order.

...

And I certainly agree with birdless about trying to transact business with people who can barely speak English.  It pisses me off and is likely to drive my business elsewhere.

Okay, so, if anyone wants to do a poll, here's the question:

Rank these scenarios in order of preference:

You are at the fast food counter.  Yes, you went in; no, it doesn't have to be a particular chain.  Your "service professional":

* ...quickly and efficiently rings up your order, serves exactly what you asked for with a smile and a flourish... but the prices are comparable to a sit-down restaurant.

* ...speaks English, but keeps talking to/texting their friends while they take your order... which they get wrong.  (Go ahead and complain, they'll just roll their eyes and get their manager to comp the meal.  Whatever.)

* ...speaks English, but it's hard to tell because they keep mumbling.  And just how old ARE those plastic gloves, anyway...

* ...speaks heavily accented English, and doesn't get mad at you even though you keep saying "What?" everytime they ask what size you'd like.

* ...speaks... um, even I don't know.  It might be French... it might be Bantu.  But if you point to the numbered menu and make hand signs, they'll figure it out.  And they'll even get the order right!

* ...slips you a copy of The Omnivore's Dilemma and cryptically whispers, "Get out while you still can!  And go get a salad!"

[wintermute]

I do know that when the guy at Wendy's can't get my order right until I say "el pollo" and point to the children, though, that I'm into that surreal territory where I feel warm and fuzzy that I can communicate with him, even though most U.S.icans would be more likely to get upset and start sending money to Tom Tancredo (link provided for information, not endorsement).

I don't know who Tom is, but I have to admit that I do get frustrated when they put someone who can barely communicate in English trying to take my drive-thru order.

Having a distinct British accent (a combination of Home Counties, South London, and a dash of Geordie, for those keeping count), while still speaking fluent English, I find that the quality of the microphones at fast food places is poor enough that I can't make myself understood easily.

And that's for a fairly clear accent. Most people have no problem understanding me face-to-face.

[Tango Alpha Delta]

I do know that when the guy at Wendy's can't get my order right until I say "el pollo" and point to the children, though, that I'm into that surreal territory where I feel warm and fuzzy that I can communicate with him, even though most U.S.icans would be more likely to get upset and start sending money to Tom Tancredo (link provided for information, not endorsement).

I don't know who Tom is, but I have to admit that I do get frustrated when they put someone who can barely communicate in English trying to take my drive-thru order.

Having a distinct British accent (a combination of Home Counties, South London, and a dash of Geordie, for those keeping count), while still speaking fluent English, I find that the quality of the microphones at fast food places is poor enough that I can't make myself understood easily.

And that's for a fairly clear accent. Most people have no problem understanding me face-to-face.

I feel your pain, mate... 3 years in Sleaford, Lincs, and every time I spoke to anyone in a shop they looked at me as if I had just grown a new head.

"Hi, yes, I am Zaphod Beeblebrox.  Can you tell me where to find shoe laces?"

"Wot, then, duck?"

"Shoe laces?  The rope-like things that keep my shoes on my feet?"

(Intent stare, which gives way to dawning realization)  "O, right... you'll want 'foot-tie-y-uppies'*, then.  Aisle 5."

And don't even start me on the KFC in Lincoln.


*Actual phrase used by actual Sleaford shop keeper... I never went back.  And no Briton has yet recognized that as an actual term for shoelaces.

[cuddlebug]

I do know that when the guy at Wendy's can't get my order right until I say "el pollo" and point to the children, though, that I'm into that surreal territory where I feel warm and fuzzy that I can communicate with him, even though most U.S.icans would be more likely to get upset and start sending money to Tom Tancredo (link provided for information, not endorsement).

I don't know who Tom is, but I have to admit that I do get frustrated when they put someone who can barely communicate in English trying to take my drive-thru order.

Having a distinct British accent (a combination of Home Counties, South London, and a dash of Geordie, for those keeping count), while still speaking fluent English, I find that the quality of the microphones at fast food places is poor enough that I can't make myself understood easily.

And that's for a fairly clear accent. Most people have no problem understanding me face-to-face.

Hey, that sounds fascinating. I think a few people at work would love to use you as a guinea pig for their research. South London AND Geordie, I can't possibly imagine what that sounds like. Could you upload a recording?   

[wintermute]

My Geordie is mostly just short A's in words like "bath" (rather than "barth"), these days

Though I can do a passable reading of the Lampton Wurm, when I put my mind to it, too.

[wakela]

I wish Americans could be more accepting and encouraging like the Japanese.

Careful what you wish for. James Fallows, editor of The Atlantic Monthly, lived in Japan and wrote extensively about the experience.  In one essay, he opines that the American race problem could be solved by forcing every Caucasian American to spend a few months in Japan every couple of years.  He says that's because it's one of the few places a Caucasian American can go where the first thing people notice about them is race, and it's not good. 

Also, the Koreans who have been living in Japan for serveral generations but still aren't considered "Japanese" might have a slightly different take on Japanese "acceptence." 

My point isn't that the Japanese are somehow uniquely evil, but rather that just like Americans and pretty much all other humans, they practice their exclusions and draw their lines between "in" and "out" groups. They just express it a bit differently.

I would think a white person would also have their race noticed in Africa, China, India, the Middle East, and South America.  And some places in the United States.  I was one referred to as "that white niggah" in Times Square. 

I think the lack of patience with foreigners in the US is due to the fact Americans base their judgments less on skin color than many other countries.  If you see someone in a big city who is not white or speaks with an accent or doesn't speak English at all, it's not crazy to assume that they are an American citizen, and know how to play the American game.  When they don't it's frustrating.  In Asia anyone non-Asian is assumed to be an outsider and knows nothing about the local culture.  Japanese people place a high value on harmony and hospitality.  Any non Asian person must be a guest in the country, and is treated with politeness.  This is a two edged katana.  I could live here my whole life, become a Japanese citizen, and never be called a Japanese.  My daughter, who has a Japanese mother, is called neither Japanese nor gaijin, but hafu (half).  I think in general they have as my bigots as the US, they are just nicer and less open about it.

Also, I personally am finding that there is a critical mass of linguistic ability.  Once you pass this point it's just assumed that you speak Japanese, and then the gloves come off. 

[wakela]

Whenever I would stammer out a few poorly composed syllables native speakers would always comment on how fantastic my Japanese was (which was obviously just being polite).  I had to learn the phrase "thank you, but my Japanese is absolutely horrible", which only made them rave about my linguistic skills more and try to engage me in conversation, which I couldn't understand at all.

I lived in Seoul for two and a half years.  I think I've learned to speak badly broken Korean rather well. 

My theory (formulated in Korea, but I suspect it works in Japan too) is that the amount of praise you get from locals is inversely proportionate to your actual linguistic skills.  When I had to repeat myself three times to get a storekeeper to understand me, they always complimented me on my marvelous Korean skills once they realized what I was saying. 

But whenever I observed Westerners speaking fluent Korean to locals, they got treated very matter-of-factly, without all the "ooooh, you speak Korean very well!" praise.

When we were living in New York City my Japanese wife came home upset because someone complimented her English.  "That must mean I still don't speak English well," she said.

[zZzacha]

I wish Americans could be more accepting and encouraging like the Japanese.

I think the lack of patience with foreigners in the US is due to the fact Americans base their judgments less on skin color than many other countries. 

Reality check for me here. I always thought the native English speaking people had more patience with foreigners, trying to express themselves in English with their funny accents and using some expressions in just the wrong way.
I thought they'd find me kinda cute, trying my best and sometimes getting a frase somewhat wrong, not really expressing what I thought I was saying and being accepted for those faults, because I'm foreign  
I always think it's very very cute when foreigners try to speak Dutch, but then there aren't many foreigners who learn the language, they usually just expect us to speak English or German to them. And now that I think of it, I'd rather speak English to a non-native English speaker because then I don't have to mind my words so much, it's okay to make mistakes, because we both do and we both understand it can be hard to express your thoughts in a different language.

[Chodon]

I wish Americans could be more accepting and encouraging like the Japanese.

I think the lack of patience with foreigners in the US is due to the fact Americans base their judgments less on skin color than many other countries. 

Reality check for me here. I always thought the native English speaking people had more patience with foreigners, trying to express themselves in English with their funny accents and using some expressions in just the wrong way.
I thought they'd find me kinda cute, trying my best and sometimes getting a frase somewhat wrong, not really expressing what I thought I was saying and being accepted for those faults, because I'm foreign  
I always think it's very very cute when foreigners try to speak Dutch, but then there aren't many foreigners who learn the language, they usually just expect us to speak English or German to them. And now that I think of it, I'd rather speak English to a non-native English speaker because then I don't have to mind my words so much, it's okay to make mistakes, because we both do and we both understand it can be hard to express your thoughts in a different language.

I don't think European accents have the same negative reaction in the US as Asian or Hispanic (yes, I realize they speak Spanish in Spain and it's in Europe, but most Americans don't know that and don't care...the call Spanish "Mexican").  I think it comes from the whole illegal immigration BS going on right now in the US.  It's not an absolute by any means, but I think Europeans would have an easier go of things while visiting the US than non-Europeans. 

[Anarkey]

I always think it's very very cute when foreigners try to speak Dutch, but then there aren't many foreigners who learn the language, they usually just expect us to speak English or German to them. And now that I think of it, I'd rather speak English to a non-native English speaker because then I don't have to mind my words so much, it's okay to make mistakes, because we both do and we both understand it can be hard to express your thoughts in a different language.

This is coincident with my experience when I have been in Europe.  I ostensibly tried to practice my German, but anytime I got past the original interchange and it was discovered I was American, most German-speaking people I dealt with were eager to practice their English, and I only really got to practice my greetings and storekeeper exchanges.  Though in Switzerland I was quite thankful for the quick to English switch, because that's HARD German to understand for a non-native speaker (I said "Langsamer, bitte!" frequently and kept checking in people's mouths for the marbles I was sure they were talking around).  In the Netherlands people were highly tolerant of my talking German at them.  In Italy I faked by with my deep knowledge of Argentine slang which is heavily Italian based, and didn't get into many in-depth conversations.  Totally different story in France, of course.  Nothing but French would do there (which I don't speak), and I got such attitude that I won't be going back.  No croissant or Impressionist painting is worth that much grief.

[eytanz]

Totally different story in France, of course.  Nothing but French would do there (which I don't speak), and I got such attitude that I won't be going back.  No croissant or Impressionist painting is worth that much grief.

My favorite French-attitude-to-foreigners moment happened when, in 2006, I got off an Amsterdam-Paris train in Gare du Nord and walked over to the tourist information desk, trying to figure out what metro station the hotel I booked was at, only to discover that they would only respond to me in French (I'd be very surprised if either of the two people sitting there actually didn't know English. The impression I got was that they simply had no intention of using it). I ended up giving up and taking a taxi.

(To be fair, the next time I went to a tourist information desk in Paris I got a very helpful and straightforward response).

[zZzacha]

This is coincident with my experience when I have been in Europe.  I ostensibly tried to practice my German, but anytime I got past the original interchange and it was discovered I was American, most German-speaking people I dealt with were eager to practice their English, and I only really got to practice my greetings and storekeeper exchanges.

Hmm.. My experience with Germans in Holland is, that they refuse to speak English, they expect the Dutch to always speak German to them. (I know I'm generalizing here) It may be a size-thing: America is bigger than Germany (yep, it really is), so when Germans talk to Americans, they will speak their language. And when Germans come to Holland, they expect the same treatment from the smaller country...
But I do agree with you remark about practicing English, I love doing that to.

Though in Switzerland I was quite thankful for the quick to English switch, because that's HARD German to understand for a non-native speaker (I said "Langsamer, bitte!" frequently and kept checking in people's mouths for the marbles I was sure they were talking around).

Yeah, I have that to. Incomprehensible! I had the same feeling with one of the EP-stories lately: EP133 - Other People's Money, read by Amanda Fitzwater from New Zealand. My thought was exactly the same: English with marbles in her mouth. I couldn't get around them, so I had to stop listening.
Marbles, it's a hard thing to get around.

In the Netherlands people were highly tolerant of my talking German at them.

Funny! I thought most of the Dutch hated speaking German and they're talking German to an American? Maybe they just don't like talking to Germans.

Totally different story in France, of course.  Nothing but French would do there (which I don't speak), and I got such attitude that I won't be going back.  No croissant or Impressionist painting is worth that much grief.

In France they love French, that's true. They're very proud of their language and are not very tolerable about other influences (especially English). In France, most English movies and tv series are translated to French (whereas in Holland they use subtitles), so they really don't come into contact with English a lot. I must admit, the language is beautiful but the attitude can be rather difficult.

[stePH]

Totally different story in France, of course.  Nothing but French would do there (which I don't speak), and I got such attitude that I won't be going back.  No croissant or Impressionist painting is worth that much grief.

In France they love French, that's true. They're very proud of their language and are not very tolerable about other influences (especially English). In France, most English movies and tv series are translated to French (whereas in Holland they use subtitles), so they really don't come into contact with English a lot. I must admit, the language is beautiful but the attitude can be rather difficult.

"Welcome to France.  Now speak French." 

[zZzacha]

"Welcome to France.  Now speak French." 

"Welcome to France! .... Parlez Français maintenant."   

[cuddlebug]

This is coincident with my experience when I have been in Europe.  I ostensibly tried to practice my German, but anytime I got past the original interchange and it was discovered I was American, most German-speaking people I dealt with were eager to practice their English, and I only really got to practice my greetings and storekeeper exchanges.

Hmm.. My experience with Germans in Holland is, that they refuse to speak English, they expect the Dutch to always speak German to them. (I know I'm generalizing here) It may be a size-thing: America is bigger than Germany (yep, it really is), so when Germans talk to Americans, they will speak their language. And when Germans come to Holland, they expect the same treatment from the smaller country...

Sorry to hear your experience with us Germans is such a negative one, but I have to say I am surprised that Germans would expect you to speak German to them and I don't think it has anything to do with the size of the country. Germans would probably always speak English if they don't actually speak the language of the country in question. Maybe they are just making the (false) assumption you would understand German better than English, given that Dutch SOUNDS very similar to German (no offense, and don't get me wrong I am not trying to defend their behavior, even if it sounds like I am).

Though in Switzerland I was quite thankful for the quick to English switch, because that's HARD German to understand for a non-native speaker (I said "Langsamer, bitte!" frequently and kept checking in people's mouths for the marbles I was sure they were talking around).

Yeah, I have that to. Incomprehensible! I had the same feeling with one of the EP-stories lately: EP133 - Other People's Money, read by Amanda Fitzwater from New Zealand. My thought was exactly the same: English with marbles in her mouth. I couldn't get around them, so I had to stop listening.
Marbles, it's a hard thing to get around.

And for what it is worth, I am just as distracted by all the wonderful marbles as you guys are, and like myself a lot of native speakers of German won't understand 'Schwyzerdütsch', just to make that clear. Actually, come to think of it, quite a few German dialects are almost incomprehensible to me as well. A real Bavarian (from a small village, rathe rthan a bigger city) could just as well speak Finnish and I would probably understand just as much, and I am a native speaker of German.

In the Netherlands people were highly tolerant of my talking German at them.

Funny! I thought most of the Dutch hated speaking German and they're talking German to an American? Maybe they just don't like talking to Germans.

Yes, that sounds more like it. I believe, there is a strong anti-German attitude in the Netherlands. I read about German exchange students being systematically ostracized in a Dutch university (gotta find that article, will post a link if I do), ... but I am sure that cannot be overgeneralized. It might just have bene a one-off.

Totally different story in France, of course.  Nothing but French would do there (which I don't speak), and I got such attitude that I won't be going back.  No croissant or Impressionist painting is worth that much grief.

In France they love French, that's true. They're very proud of their language and are not very tolerable about other influences (especially English). In France, most English movies and tv series are translated to French (whereas in Holland they use subtitles), so they really don't come into contact with English a lot. I must admit, the language is beautiful but the attitude can be rather difficult.

In my experience the behavior towards foreigners is not very accommodating even if they speak French. Quite a few times people have been rather rude and impolite (... and that is me saying that, given that we Germans are pretty rude, impolite and cold people and of course the Dutch don't like us for good reasons  ) despite the fact that I was speaking French, I guess my French was just not good enough.

But then again, I think the French are doing it right. Look at us stupid Germans (am speaking only of myself, of course), we keep speaking English as soon as someone seems to have an accent, no wonder nobody wants to learn German, people just don't see the necessity.

... and I still think impressionist paintings are worth the hassle, and croissants, come on for a good croissant I'll just ignore the attitude, put on a big smile and see how long it takes them until they stop frowning (works for me every time.  )

[Anarkey]

Funny! I thought most of the Dutch hated speaking German and they're talking German to an American? Maybe they just don't like talking to Germans.

I think it might have been an attempt at camaraderie.  A "Let's both find a language that neither one of us speaks natively and that way you won't be struggling on your own."  Anyway, it seemed to be taken with grace.  I guess no one actually mistook me for a German, just for someone trying not to be a clueless American. 

[Windup]

I would think a white person would also have their race noticed in Africa, China, India, the Middle East, and South America.  And some places in the United States.  I was one referred to as "that white niggah" in Times Square. 

I can only speak directly to the question of race with regard to Africa, specifically southern Nigeria, where my parents were missionaries.  Yes, the people that live there definitely do notice that you're white, but they generally treat you better in various subtle ways -- bettter service,  more respectful, etc. -- because of it.  Go figure...

[Anarkey]

... and I still think impressionist paintings are worth the hassle, and croissants, come on for a good croissant I'll just ignore the attitude, put on a big smile and see how long it takes them until they stop frowning (works for me every time.  )

Well, to each his own, but I'll take an architecturally interesting cathedral (like Köln's, say) any day of the week over a Monet.  And I'll take Italian ice cream over a croissant anytime, as well.  Once I've crossed the big Atlantic, I have worn away some of my willingness to put up with bs, specially when plenty of places are more tourist accomodating than France.  Though again, I don't begrudge you your enjoyment of said croissants.