EP359: Chasers

[Balu]

At the risk of going 'above and beyond' - this is fiction after all - a generation ship would need to make extensive provision for the mental health of its occupants, which means having access to social communication, which means - pretty quickly - factions, politics, power struggles, and the development of political nous. Even ambassadors are adept negotiators, maybe more so than ships' captains, so the primacy and sensitivity of the frozen cargo could hardly have been a barely considered side issue. This woman's naivete looks like a clumsy plot device that allows the rest of the cast of inadequates to get on with obliterating everyone for short sighted gains. A few tweaks, and it  could have been quite different and much better, I think. 

Interesting point. Although perhaps a population which was conditioned to enjoy a high level of mental health would be quite naive about how crazy outside people can be.

[InfiniteMonkey]

What kind of clueless numpty tells people she doesn't know about a development that will put them out of business AND that the designers are on board AND that it will all get going as soon as they reach their destination?

Oh, I encounter people like that ALL THE TIME. People who'll give arguments from "principle" not knowing or caring the psychological effect on the listener. Even when it's their job to help the listener. People who are just too thick to see any other viewpoint beyond their own or too clueless to understand the effect of what they're talking about.

I don't need complicated arguments about generational ships to buy that one. 

[Dem]

At the risk of going 'above and beyond' - this is fiction after all - a generation ship would need to make extensive provision for the mental health of its occupants, which means having access to social communication, which means - pretty quickly - factions, politics, power struggles, and the development of political nous. Even ambassadors are adept negotiators, maybe more so than ships' captains, so the primacy and sensitivity of the frozen cargo could hardly have been a barely considered side issue. This woman's naivete looks like a clumsy plot device that allows the rest of the cast of inadequates to get on with obliterating everyone for short sighted gains. A few tweaks, and it  could have been quite different and much better, I think. 

Interesting point. Although perhaps a population which was conditioned to enjoy a high level of mental health would be quite naive about how crazy outside people can be.

In a generational ship, they would have their own craziness. But you don't have to be crazy to take sides, there are plenty of social psychology experiments that show how easily groups form identities and then start repelling boarders or trying to take over the opposition. I can't see how anyone in charge could be anything other than shrewd and savvy about potential manipulation. Actually, they might be more than a match for the chasers as psychopathy is a key feature of business and leadership success. On a dimension, of course; I don't think Richard Branson is a serial killer. Not so sure about Virgin rail sandwiches though 

[Bdoomed]

Pretty much everything I want to say has been said already. The story was pretty fun at first, I was really rooting for him to get that first catch. The unveiling of the new system that would remove the need for fueling sent the story somewhat downwards. It got predictable, in a bad way. (It was predictable before though, obviously he was going to finally make a catch)

Wild's reaction to the news was stupid, the others' handling of the situation was stupid, etc. But somehow, all that doesn't seem so far out of the realm of believability. I'm sure that even today, stupid people are ridding the world of life-changing inventions. It's why we don't have cars that run on water. Why wouldn't that happen out in space in the future as well?

[tpi]

I'm sure that even today, stupid people are ridding the world of life-changing inventions. It's why we don't have cars that run on water. Why wouldn't that happen out in space in the future as well?

No, the reason we don't have cars running on water isn't that the invention is suppressed. It is because it is impossible.

[Cattfish]

For those interested in learning more,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car

the basic idea would be to use electricity to split water, forming H and O, and then use the energy of that H to "burn" it back into water.  Of course there's no way this will be a self-sustaining system (re: 2nd law of thermodynamics) since it takes more energy to form water.  So what you actually need to do is have a constant supply of hydrogen (think fueling stations).  It's the exact same thing, except the splitting is done by your local Shell station

[Unblinking]

Also, while some commenters here suggest that he should look at the big picture and just sell off his shares while they're still valuable, there's a term for that: that's called insider trading and all it does is pass off the loss to some other poor schlub with a family to support.

You are right that that would be insider trading.  You are also right that it would be passing his loss to another poor schlub with a family to support.  So instead he commits a major sabotage crime that will pass it off to many many others with families to support, quite possibly sennding the residents of that ship to die on the ship even if their kids live on, and quite possibly bankrupting the sender of the ship and taking down all their employees with them. 

Both are crimes.  Both would benefit Wild's family to the cost of many others.  To me the insider trading seems less injurious in general in that it wouldn't doom the generation ship and all those on it.  But in any case, I think that given Wild's methods, goals, and ethics, it would've been an entirely reasonable alternate solution.  Then again, he's just so wild he might not have thought about it.


 

Oh, and the crazy and intense character's name being "Wild", was a bit hokey to me.

Why?  I don't think that was his birth name.  I think it's part of a typical astronaut culture in our time to take a nickname that everyone calls you.   Why not "Wild" for a wild one.  Not particularly clever, but it's descriptive

[benjaminjb]

To me the insider trading seems less injurious in general ...

I agree with that--I just wanted to point out that Wild's options are limited and all hurtful in some degree: (1) lose the work and equity he's built up working as a chaser; (2) let some other person bear the burden of the suddenly-not-so-valuable shares (insider trading); (3) destroy or delay the possibility of non-chaser technology (as well as either killing or exiling* everyone on-board the generation ship).

[Edited to eliminate my annoying tendency towards double negatives, i.e., "I don't disagree"-->"I agree"]

He chooses (3), which you and I may agree is the worst option, as long as we also agree that all his options are bad--which is why I called the story a tragedy.

*This is a whole separate issue, but I'm not sure we have enough information to adequately say what will happen to the generation starship. If it's a self-sustaining generation ship (e.g., Heinlein, "Universe"), it might go on for a very long time, barring it doesn't fall into a star. And for that calculation, I refer to Douglas Adams: "Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is."

[Cutter McKay]

Oh, and the crazy and intense character's name being "Wild", was a bit hokey to me.

Why?  I don't think that was his birth name.  I think it's part of a typical astronaut culture in our time to take a nickname that everyone calls you.   Why not "Wild" for a wild one.  Not particularly clever, but it's descriptive

You know, you're right. I forgot the line that explained how he wasn't born Johnny Wild, but no one knew anything else to call him. I formally retract my previous complaint.

[chemistryguy]

The story was written with all the enthusiasm of nineteen-fifties pulp, with as little regard to accuracy, or language. Plot holes wherever you look, unconvincing characters, unbelievable tech, rubbish physics.

Which is probably why I loved this so much...except for the "moooooove over".  By the 25th time, blood began oozing out of my ears.

All manner of tropes were satisfied with no messy technical explanations or character development.  If I had my druthers, I would have included an overbearing skeeter dispatcher.  Tobacco-laced spittle would fly from his mouth as he screamed obscenities at Sebastian for making such a bone-headed maneuver.  Hijinks would ensue.


I'll agree that Wilde's decision was not very well thought out, but you can't don't blame him.  He's written as an extremely impulsive person, and an impulsive action is precisely what he takes.  I'd take a fiery, explosive death in exchange for the well-being of my children.  I can't say I'd doom a shipload of people in process.  So it goes. 

Didn't they include any emergency protocol should something go wrong?  Especially one that is carrying such "important" passengers.  Have we learned NOTHING following the sinking of the S.S. Titanic other than naked photos will always resurface somewhere?  No?  Than I guess this story reflects reality more than some would be willing to admit.   

Damn!  I've gone and read a deeper meaning into this one.  Sorry 'bout that.

[Unblinking]

[Edited to eliminate my annoying tendency towards double negatives, i.e., "I don't disagree"-->"I agree"]

For what it's worth, I consider "I don't disagree" a perfectly valid phrase, with a different shade of meaning than "I agree".  I tend to say that when my response to someone's argument is somewhat neutral, that is I don't see it exactly as they do but I don't think they're wrong etiher.

He chooses (3), which you and I may agree is the worst option, as long as we also agree that all his options are bad--which is why I called the story a tragedy.

Fair enough!

[Max e^{i pi}]

Wow. Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought this story had more holes in it than a pumice stone.
Also, I'm not sure if it was my player or my downloaded file, but at 21:20 I lost 8 seconds of sound, and Matt picked up as if he had been speaking for the past 8 seconds...

I found, though, that if I turn off my analytical brain the story was pretty good.

[Special Ed]

Nearly every mention of time, distance, or speed is deeply flawed.  While I somewhat enjoyed the story while I listened to it, when it was over and I started thinking the numbers involved I got more and more annoyed, to the point that it is now 15 hours later and the first thing I'm doing with my work day is posting about it. 

As a very simple example, it should have taken our "hero" at least 56hours to change his speed by .1c.  And that is a face-melting constant 15g acceleration.  There are lots of other examples of horrible math but just sharing that one makes me feel better.  If the author had left off any mention of speed or distance, it would have been easier to take (and then we would have merely had problems with characters making awful decisions.)

For those that are interested in the math--
c = 300,000,000 meters per second (okay, it is actually  299,792,458 m/s but close enough)
So .1c = 30,000,000 m/s
the equation for a simple change in velocity is V = a * t.  (Change in velocity equals acceleration multiplied by time.)
I will assume a constant acceleration of 15g (which is crazily high, but seemingly tolerable by human beings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force#Horizontal_axis_g-force)
15g = 15 times the force of gravity on Earth which is 9.8 m/s = 147m/s
30,000,000/147 = 204081 seconds = 3401 minutes = 56 hours

[Special Ed]

One other thing- as soon as the naive Captain started spilling the beans about the cargo, I expected a much different ending.  I thought that Wild would negotiate an outlandishly high fee for the fuel and that our "hero" would get a large enough bonus check that he could retire after only a single catch.

"Look, Captain, if we don't fuel your ship, this 3 trillion megabuck project goes right down the drain.  Not to mention the 6,000 lives of your passengers.   Trust me, you don't want that on your hands just because you were trying to save a few dollars of someone else's money."

[Talia]

Well I enjoyed it as a fun little space adventure. I'm not interested in/don't care about any math/science glitches so the apparent faults there didn't bother me.

I was sure everyone would like this one too, go figure. *scratches head*

[Unblinking]

Well I enjoyed it as a fun little space adventure. I'm not interested in/don't care about any math/science glitches so the apparent faults there didn't bother me.

I was sure everyone would like this one too, go figure. *scratches head*

That's what you get for being sure about people's opinions.   

[chemistryguy]

Nearly every mention of time, distance, or speed is deeply flawed.  While I somewhat enjoyed the story while I listened to it, when it was over and I started thinking the numbers involved I got more and more annoyed, to the point that it is now 15 hours later and the first thing I'm doing with my work day is posting about it. 

As a very simple example, it should have taken our "hero" at least 56hours to change his speed by .1c.  And that is a face-melting constant 15g acceleration.  There are lots of other examples of horrible math but just sharing that one makes me feel better.  If the author had left off any mention of speed or distance, it would have been easier to take (and then we would have merely had problems with characters making awful decisions.)

For those that are interested in the math--
c = 300,000,000 meters per second (okay, it is actually  299,792,458 m/s but close enough)
So .1c = 30,000,000 m/s
the equation for a simple change in velocity is V = a * t.  (Change in velocity equals acceleration multiplied by time.)
I will assume a constant acceleration of 15g (which is crazily high, but seemingly tolerable by human beings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force#Horizontal_axis_g-force)
15g = 15 times the force of gravity on Earth which is 9.8 m/s = 147m/s
30,000,000/147 = 204081 seconds = 3401 minutes = 56 hours

Two words:
Inertia dampener

[Max e^{i pi}]

Nearly every mention of time, distance, or speed is deeply flawed.  While I somewhat enjoyed the story while I listened to it, when it was over and I started thinking the numbers involved I got more and more annoyed, to the point that it is now 15 hours later and the first thing I'm doing with my work day is posting about it.  

As a very simple example, it should have taken our "hero" at least 56hours to change his speed by .1c.  And that is a face-melting constant 15g acceleration.  There are lots of other examples of horrible math but just sharing that one makes me feel better.  If the author had left off any mention of speed or distance, it would have been easier to take (and then we would have merely had problems with characters making awful decisions.)

For those that are interested in the math--
c = 300,000,000 meters per second (okay, it is actually  299,792,458 m/s but close enough)
So .1c = 30,000,000 m/s
the equation for a simple change in velocity is V = a * t.  (Change in velocity equals acceleration multiplied by time.)
I will assume a constant acceleration of 15g (which is crazily high, but seemingly tolerable by human beings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force#Horizontal_axis_g-force)
15g = 15 times the force of gravity on Earth which is 9.8 m/s = 147m/s
30,000,000/147 = 204081 seconds = 3401 minutes = 56 hours

Two words:
Inertia dampener

Why  not bounce a graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish while you're at it?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Grumpoid]

Why  not bounce a graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish while you're at it?

Sorry, couldn't resist.


Gadzooks! Thank you for that.

[Scatcatpdx]

I am not one to nit pick on the science; I just want a good story not a physics lesson. This was not a good story. The ending killed the story for me.

The  story really did not have much until Sebastian's first catch. Both men's animals action really upsets  me. Wild  condemns 6000+ poor souls in a narcissistic attempt to protect the job and family  and Sebastian's, now  a cold heart accessory to mas murder, covers up and rationalizes the deed to tough competition .

It would  be a better story if told  as Sebastian being lead off to the gallows or air lock.

It kind of reminds me of Longshoremen attempt to block innovation  of cargo tracking (bar code scanning etc) that would leave their  job obsolete.

[Balu]

In a generational ship, they would have their own craziness. But you don't have to be crazy to take sides, there are plenty of social psychology experiments that show how easily groups form identities and then start repelling boarders or trying to take over the opposition. I can't see how anyone in charge could be anything other than shrewd and savvy about potential manipulation. Actually, they might be more than a match for the chasers as psychopathy is a key feature of business and leadership success. On a dimension, of course; I don't think Richard Branson is a serial killer. Not so sure about Virgin rail sandwiches though 

Well that's my point. Taking sides doesn't have to be crazy.

The generational ship's captain probably thought like some people above, that the guy will just be sensible, shrug his shoulders, and rearrange his investment portfolio. She may even have thought he'd be grateful for the warning.

[KP Duty]

Well I enjoyed it as a fun little space adventure. I'm not interested in/don't care about any math/science glitches so the apparent faults there didn't bother me.

I was sure everyone would like this one too, go figure. *scratches head*

Me too. This was my favorite Escape Pod episode since #78: The Shoulders of Giants, and I've slogged through a lot of near-future, dystopian, "Steve (or later Mur) may be pointing at it and saying science fiction, but I'm really not sure why" stories waiting for another silly, pulpy, space-opera story that I can hear while driving and not be totally lost if I miss 10 seconds in traffic.

The speed of light stuff bothered me for half an instant and then I decided to let it go and just enjoy the story. I needed an escape today, and this one fit the bill.

[El Barto]

Also, while some commenters here suggest that he should look at the big picture and just sell off his shares while they're still valuable, there's a term for that: that's called insider trading and all it does is pass off the loss to some other poor schlub with a family to support.

This is almost certainly NOT insider trading, assuming the laws of distant space are the same as current U.S. law, because insider trading is only illegal when someone improperly discloses confidential information.   

If the space captain was allowed to talk about it, the news was public and Wild was simply the first person in the new part of space to know. 

For a fun time, read about the famous case of SEC v Switzer in which "Barry Switzer, then-Oklahoma football coach, was prosecuted by the SEC in 1981 after he and his friends purchased shares in Phoenix Resources, an oil company. Switzer was at a track meeting when he overhead a conversation between executives concerning the liquidation of the business. He purchased the stock at around $42 per share, and later sold at $59, making around $98,000 in the process. The charges against him were later dismissed" because there was no evidence he did anything wrong.  http://beginnersinvest.about.com/cs/newinvestors/a/102702a.htm

Idiots who blurt things out can instantly turn highly confidential information into public information that everyone else can act on.  The moral question of whether it is right to pass on your shares in stock to "some other poor schlub" is an interesting one because almost every stock trade is voluntary and both parties think they are getting a good deal based on their information.

[El Barto]

I wish Sebastian had grown a pair of balls and said to Wild, “After all your posturing, all your little speeches, you're nothing but a common thief.”

Wild didn’t nobly kill himself to provide for his children but rather died in a calculated risk that, had it gone right, would have been a crime against humanity as he vented the fuel into space. 

Wild’s crime against humanity was mind-bogglingly unnecessary given that he already collected 60+ bonuses and likely would collect that many more in the coming years.  And there is no reason to think that his kids are somehow unfit to earn their own living, which would not remotely excuse his actions but would at least create some vaguely credible context.

Lastly, I have to also add my two cents to the complete irrationality of the plot’s allowing the “news” to be leaked by a drifter captain.  If Apple keeps the new iPhone under tight wraps, and druglords kill people for possibly being moles, you can bet that if someone is going to invest in a multi-trillion dollar initiative that has any potential enemies, there will be an incredibly robust (likely military) plan to protect the entire plan and its players.  Everyone on the far side will be bribed and incentivized to want to make the transition happen. 

P.S.  Great narrating

[matweller]

Just within the past year, many,many people have died in sealed shipping containers and assorted hideaways because the people paid to smuggle them across the boarder didn't want to get caught by the police and hurt their business. Twice in the past two years, MI and PA agencies have ordered people raising animals (a dog breeder and a farmer raising illegal boars) to "get rid of them" or be taken to jail. So they did. Slave traders used to dump "live cargo" at the drop of a hat to protect themselves and dodge the law. This kind of cruelty is not unprecedented and not even rare. It may make you queezy, but it's not unrealistic by a long shot.

Regardless, none of it would have been necessary if they just had Knight Industries design the barge...